Signing An Incorrect Scorecard - Should Rule Be Modernized?

[Vinsk]

1 minute ago, Hardluckster said:

Anna's situation would not have warranted the additional two stroke penalty due to the new Decision 34-3/10.

**You beat me to it, RandallT! 

I have not. Thank you. I'll shut up.

[Vinsk]

On 4/26/2017 at 9:09 AM, iacas said:

Read up on Rule 6-6b, Julia.

I'll save you the time of typing "usga.org" into your browser and navigating to http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-06,6-6 .

6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play 

a. Recording Scores 

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible. 

b. Signing and Returning Score Card 

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible. 

Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-6b: 

Disqualification.

---

Julia, look, again… this "viewers watching previous rounds and calling in":

• doesn't happen very often.
• can ONLY happen if a player fails to follow the rules.

You're basically trying to concoct ways for criminals (I'm making an analogy) to get out of their charges on technicalities, when we all know they did something illegal.

Just to be precise, as you most certainly are, "Doesn't happen very often" is not a legitimate argument of defense. Actually , neither I nor you has any idea how many calls this 'committee' gets. It's not a public forum that is displayed during the tournament like Twitter comments. I cannot argue with your points as they are quite factual and well explained, but not happening very often doesn't really matter. 

[Missouri Swede]

This is a bit tangential, but related:  Do they sign scorecards for playoff holes?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Just to be precise, as you most certainly are, "Doesn't happen very often" is not a legitimate argument of defense.

It is, inasmuch as I'm not "defending" anything.

You're over-reacting and looking to make massive, sweeping changes to the rules of the game despite this sort of thing that prompted this whole discussion not happening very often at all.

And should it happen frequently - that players are caught breaching rules unknowingly - perhaps players should endeavor to know and follow the rules. This all goes away if there's nothing about which to "call in."

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Actually , neither I nor you has any idea how many calls this 'committee' gets. It's not a public forum that is displayed during the tournament like Twitter comments.

Speaking for just myself there, that's not really true. I have a pretty good idea.

Of course it's not public, but I'm also not really a member of the "public" when it comes to golf, golf tournaments, rules committees, etc.

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I cannot argue with your points as they are quite factual and well explained, but not happening very often doesn't really matter. 

I disagree. I think it matters. Frequency of occurrence is always a factor when people consider policies and things. Do I buy earthquake insurance? Why not? People in California buy it. Because we don't get earthquakes here with much frequency.

The rules we have in place regarding signing an incorrect scorecard make sense to me. In fact I still kinda wish the two-stroke thing wasn't added in 2016 - I think it's perfectly fine to DQ someone for not knowing the rules and thus breaching them and signing an incorrect scorecard. I don't feel strongly about that, and I'm like 48% okay with the two-strokes thing… but I think you're out in the weeds when you say some of the things you've said.

[Hardluckster]

Just now, iacas said:

In fact I still kinda wish the two-stroke thing wasn't added in 2016 - I think it's perfectly fine to DQ someone for not knowing the rules and thus breaching them and signing an incorrect scorecard. I don't feel strongly about that, and I'm like 48% okay with the two-strokes thing… 

I agree with this.  I think that the 2 stroke option brings in a subjective element where the committee is asked to read intent - something that is not easily done.  In the Lexi case, for example, nobody but Lexi knows what she intended and we've all heard and read arguments on both sides - none of which can ever be completely convincing.  After all, someone who cheats is most likely never going to "own up" to the act of cheating.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Hardluckster

[Vinsk]

I'm not in the weeds. I probably didn't convey my opinion properly. I am actually referring to signing the card when one honestly believes they are signing an accurate card only to find out later a viewer called in an they discovered an infraction. Not that they wiggled a ball out of their pocket and claimed to have found their ball. I'm referring to incidents like what happened to Nordquist which was pointed out to me that I was incorrect.

i also admit I don't have much tournament experience aside from friendly scrambles and corporate gigs. It's a shame that people out there in club tournaments actually cheat. I'm so thrilled about playing well and find the real challenge to be against myself.  I was forgetting that the rules you were discussing apply to all of us, not just the pros on tv. 

Lexi moved her ball. She should've known.

[Hardluckster]

I actually wish that the professional tours would simply adopt their own policy NOT to allow call-ins (I'm all in favor of call-ins, by the way).  I think it would cheapen their competitions, but it would remove once and for all the outcry over call-ins that comes from incidents like Lexi's.  I think that they would occasionally have a cheater as a tournament champion, but this would be fine with me.  It's their game and they can do whatever they want with it.  They are not bound to follow the USGA and R&A rules of golf.

What concerns me is that the ruling bodies will be pressured to water down the rules of golf in response to the outcry and in an attempt to adapt for the professional tours. For example, I think that the new 2 stroke penalty for incorrect scorecard and the new decision that was announced last week are both in response to call-in outcries (I could be wrong about that, but that's my belief). I really hope that what's happening on the pro tours doesn't cause a "weakening" of the rules.

[Rulesman]

6 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

This is a bit tangential, but related:  Do they sign scorecards for playoff holes?

If it is a playoff round, yes. If it is sudden death, no.

Cards are only required for a stipulated round.

[colin007]

I hate this frigging rule. 

 

Golfer's dreams dashed with DQ after self-reported rules violation

---

One of the most despised golf rules is in the spotlight again, and Its latest...

 

[Vinsk]

57 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I hate this frigging rule. 

 

Golfer's dreams dashed with DQ after self-reported rules violation

---

One of the most despised golf rules is in the spotlight again, and Its latest...

 

I wish there was something in place like an absolute sure check before signing is even allowed. Like on computers when you go to delete or change something it will give a pop up that asks ‘ are you sure’ or something like that. Common human error shouldn’t be penalized when it’s so easily corrected. Oh gosh..here...let me fix that..done. If a player shoots an honest 70 that should be the final call. She did it, she deserves the glory. Just a shame. Many people will not agree and that’s fine. They’ll never convince me otherwise. And I’ll never convince them.

[jlbos83]

The problem with not having to sign the correct card, as I see it...

Not every competition has the players being observed, and the scores being counted, by multiple people, and then entered into a computer that can check for accuracy.

Not every competition even has the scores in a computer with a chance to prompt for a check.

Not every opponent/marker is always paying attention to everything the other player is doing.  If they are off in the trees on opposite sides of the course, our pace of play sensibilities are going to kick in, right?

All of that said, there is an opportunity to make a double check.  Before you sign, you think to yourself, "I'm getting ready to sign my card, I should double check it."  From what I have heard, it's a mistake that is rarely made a second time.

[Pretzel]

55 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I wish there was something in place like an absolute sure check before signing is even allowed. Like on computers when you go to delete or change something it will give a pop up that asks ‘ are you sure’ or something like that.

There is though, the competitor has to be allowed to review their own scorecard before signing it. You're never just told to sign without seeing the score for each and every individual hole first.The signing of the scorecard is itself your "are you sure that score is right" check.

55 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Common human error shouldn’t be penalized when it’s so easily corrected. Oh gosh..here...let me fix that..done.

That's exactly the case, up until you place your signature on the scorecard to confirm that the score for every hole is correct. If you sign an incorrect scorecard you've proven that you didn't actually check the card to make sure it was correct, and if that gives you an advantage you're penalized appropriately. It's not a penalty for common human error, because you had the ability to easily correct the error when checking the card. The penalty is for either unnecessary carelessness or willful cheating, depending on if you looked to see the incorrect score or not.

Golf is, like it or not, considered a gentlemen's game in most areas of the world. Part of the tradition of the sport is having a personal sense of honor where your word means something, such as when you claim to have a specific score at the end of the round by signing your card. It's not hard at all to check a scorecard for error, it takes less than 2 minutes even if you're being exceptionally thorough and triple-checking. 2 minutes at the end of a tournament is an acceptable amount of time to set aside for a game's tradition and to encourage people to not be careless.

I say this as someone who has disqualified myself in the past from a tournament for signing an incorrect scorecard. I knew I shot a 76 and the organizers wrote a 75 up on the board for me. I had one hole with a triple bogey that I was disgusted by, and in checking the score cards I hastily skipped past the part where my scorer had marked it as only a double. That's on me, because part of the game is that I need to check and verify my score to be correct. It's really not hard to do, and it's no different than any of the other dozen arbitrary rules that can be broken with simple human error in both golf and other sports.

[Vinsk]

6 hours ago, Pretzel said:

to encourage people to not be careless.

I get your point, yes it’s easy to check. Perhaps she was excited...I dunno. But again, banks send the wrong amount, packages go to the wrong address, baggage gets lost, receipts get lost, names get mispronounced and misspelled. I’m just saying I wish there was a way to prevent this other than relying on one human’s attention because you can encourage people all you want and mistakes such as hers will continue to happen. It’s human error and it’s inevitable.

[saevel25]

11 hours ago, colin007 said:

I hate this frigging rule.  

I don't. 

Don't be complacent. Double check everything. Easy enough. 

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I’m just saying I wish there was a way to prevent this other than relying on one human’s attention because you can encourage people all you want and mistakes such as hers will continue to happen. It’s human error and it’s inevitable.

I bet she doesn't make that mistake ever again. 

How many times do you end up doing something wrong and have to live with the consequences. Then you don't really do that again. We shouldn't just jump on the legislation bandwagon because it seems unfair. Because, it isn't unfair. 

[DaveP043]

I don't think its unfair, the player has every opportunity to record her own scores, and check them against the scores that her marker has recorded.  This is pretty much standard procedure anywhere stroke play events are held.  

And really, what is the option?  Is someone else to be responsible for recording a player's score?  

[phillyk]

I am completely fine with this rule. Most tournaments these days have a section where you fill out your own score, tear it off, and then you can compare easier hole by hole.  It really doesn't take long to go over everything. Sometimes mistakes happen, but like other rules we don't want to rely on someone's intent.  

This last year, a buddy played in community college tournaments and told me a story of himself playing with a guy.  They would go over scores, sign, and then his competitor would post something 1 or 2 strokes lower.  This guy was erasing scores and changing them lower after both had signed.  He got outed a few times, but nothing could be proven until my buddy took a picture after they signed and his coach showed it to the committee.  Doesn't exact relate to the OP's situation but when you go over scores, do it at the rules tent or in front of the people that collect those cards.  Make sure it's done correctly.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by phillyk

[Rulesman]

In our elite competitions the card has a tear off strip. The marker marks the main card and puts his own score on the strip.

When they get to the recorder's desk, the official takes the tear off strip and asks the player to read out the individual scores written by the marker.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Rulesman

[Pretzel]

For those who are concerned about incorrect scorecards, I have developed a very effective method over the years after my own personal scorecard snafu.

Read out your scores, hole by hole, to your scorer and have them read you back their score for that hole immediately after you state the score for the same hole. It's a back and forth pattern than requires both people to read, speak, AND listen - that's the key here.

It's easy to lay two scorecards side by side and say they both look correct, because when all you're doing is reading you can end up falling into a pattern where you just unconsciously check each hole off as correct without really looking at it. Even if you read the scores out loud to yourself you can end up doing the same thing because you're not really listening. Your brain knows what it should hear because it just said it, so even if you state the mistake out loud you can very infrequently miss it because you got into a rhythm.

Involving all 3 things - reading, speaking, and hearing - with two different people forces you to pay a little bit more attention. It also gives you more than 2x the chances of catching an error even if you didn't notice it, because you scorer will likely notice and if not the scorer anyone nearby could also hear and notice. The back and forth keeps you engaged enough that brain farts are substantially less likely, and in turn incorrect scorecards are also less likely.