Can an LPGA player win on PGA tour?

[rehmwa]

8 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

... Ok then. Guess we just have to agree to disagree here. To me, if anything, she should have specifically asked the interviewer not to bring her up in questions like that instead of going after him for answer it.

I'm good with going after the reporter too.

 

Edit:  I went and re-read his comments.  I think they actually were fairly flattering to her.  So I'm leaning at least a little more to your side (on the internet, that's a huge concession you know).  That said, all she said was she didn't want to be in the discussion which is harmless.

Edited June 28, 2017 by rehmwa

[mvmac]

I voted for "never happen". The LPGA player would have to be the longest player in the women's game and also be exceptional with her iron and wedge play because she would still be one of the shorter hitters on the men's tour. Maybe someday a woman could play the PGA Tour and make some cuts but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Hitting it 300+ is basically just average now on the PGA Tour. The tour is only going to evolve more in favor of guys like DJ, Bubba and Koepka. Guys like Zach Johnson are a dying breed.

3 hours ago, billchao said:

PGA Tour courses aren't set up the same as PGA Tour courses. Men play longer courses with thicker rough, firmer and faster greens. If you look at the Trackman averages, the women are not just losing yardage compared to the men, but they also generate less spin, hit the ball lower, and have a more shallow descent angle. They're at a disadvantage just hitting greens.

Right, 100%. It's just not the same game.

2 hours ago, zipazoid said:

What about the length disparity? Two words: Corey Pavin

Corey Pavin would have a much different career if he was starting off now.

David Toms was complaining 10 years ago that he can't compete because of his lack of distance. 

Here's the top ten players in the world. You're not going to find any Corey Pavin-type players in today's game that are winning on a consistent basis. Topic of the thread is winning, not making cuts/competing. The shortest hitter is Noren who averages 291.

[Ernest Jones]

I voted Never Happen. 

[Moppy]

I like watching women's golf from time to time. I don't recall ever seeing the lightening fast greens you sometimes see on the men's tour. The hardwood floor type speeds. I am assuming this is because they do not wish to embarrass their players. 

I just don't think you can compare putting stats between tours. It's like comparing softball to baseball. This is a stupid argument anyways. I LIKE watching women's golf. It's a great game. I like women. Evolution made us different. Vive la difference! as the French say.

[zipazoid]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

Corey Pavin would have a much different career if he was starting off now.

David Toms was complaining 10 years ago that he can't compete because of his lack of distance. 

Here's the top ten players in the world. You're not going to find any Corey Pavin-type players in today's game that are winning on a consistent basis. Topic of the thread is winning, not making cuts/competing. The shortest hitter is Noren who averages 291.

The question wasn't can an LPGA player win on a consistent basis on the PGA Tour, it was can she win on the PGA Tour. So while I don't disagree that Pavin would have a much different career if he started out now, that's not really the point. 

If an LPGA pro can hit 70% of the greens & is making putts, she can win. Now, obviously, not on any PGA Tour course. For ex, I would have a hard time seeing an LPGA pro winning at this year's US Open site that featured 525-yard par 4s. But there are shorter tracks out there (Harbour Town, TPC River Highlands) where it's conceivable, in my opinion.

Edited June 28, 2017 by zipazoid

[todgot]

I voted yes, maybe in the future because our definition of females are changing.  Case in point a transgender female without hormones or sex reassignment surgery won the girls state championship as a freshman.  "Her" time would have come in last place among the boys but "she" was allowed to compete against the girls.  Times are a changing. 

I've played some basketball back in the day but was not good enough to make my high school basketball team.. or junior high school for that matter.  I peaked in grade school.  I was hanging out at a gym one day and there were some female college basketball players hanging around.  We started to play pick up games and I was guarding a college center for UNLV who could not get a shot off against me... I blocked everything she put up and it wasn't even close.  It was like me playing against one of my kids. 

[14ledo81]

I voted never happen.

[todgot]

15 minutes ago, todgot said:

Case in point a transgender female without hormones or sex reassignment surgery won the girls state championship as a freshman

I forgot to mention... it was the Connecticut state track championship in the 100 and 200 meter dash. 

[onthehunt526]

I said possibly in the future. I think a woman would have to be able to at least average the PGA Tour average driving distance or there about. It would probably have to be on one of the shorter courses on tour. 

Some women like Lexi can hit it far with the driver, but not as preportionately long with her irons, which was Michelle Wie's problem. She drove it miles. But her 4-iron was like 190 yards, the tour average is 203 (carry)... 

[zipazoid]

6 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I said possibly in the future. I think a woman would have to be able to at least average the PGA Tour average driving distance or there about. It would probably have to be on one of the shorter courses on tour. 

Some women like Lexi can hit it far with the driver, but not as preportionately long with her irons, which was Michelle Wie's problem. She drove it miles. But her 4-iron was like 190 yards, the tour average is 203 (carry)... 

I thought I saw that Lexi averages 280 off the tee...? If so, that (obviously) puts her at the tail end of the men, but still long enough for shorter PGA Tour courses - 280 down the middle works at Harbour Town. 

[BamaWade]

6 hours ago, chspeed said:

1. It's generally accepted that the main reason why women can't compete with men in most sports is strength and speed. Other aspects of sports, like skill, training, mental toughness etc. are essentially equal between the sexes.

Yep.  I think there shouldn't theoretically be a gender ceiling difference on skill/potential.  If there is a statistical gap there (like mentioned in the billiards point - which surprised me) it is due to other factors (availability of facilities/instruction/access to sport. etc.).

6 hours ago, chspeed said:

2. Is "strength and speed" in golf is less important than it is in other sports?

Nope.  Distance/power is a huge advantage, is largely derivative of swing speed, which is largely derivative of core strength size/leverage.

6 hours ago, chspeed said:

3. Has the most important results of strength and speed in golf, namely hitting the ball further, been narrowed over the years? Ostensibly by training and technology. For example, Lexi Thomson (average drive 277 yards) hits it almost as far as PGA tour winners like Brandt Snedeker (281 yards) or Steve Stricker (280 yards).

I don't think so.  But... Not a valid comparison (relative to supporting the point starting the sentence) for a couple of reasons IMO.  1., Lexi is at the top (#3) in distance on the LPGA, and being compared against Snedeker (#169) on men's and Stricker (#173).  2., even though she is close to them in driving distance, I don't think their power would be similar.  Course setups on the tour require not only length, but height/stopping ability that is a function of power.  While Lexi's distance might get her around a ~7600yd. course, I don't think her power/flight would allow her to attack pins & hold greens.  FWIW, I did find the following driver swing speeds (not sure how I'd interpret relative to the above):

Lexi: 106mph
Brandt: 112mph
Steve: 110mph

6 hours ago, chspeed said:

Do you think a top LPGA player could win on the PGA tour?

Full/normal PGA tour event?  No chance.  Some skins, 1-on-1 match deal, or other contrived situation?  Sure, on occasion.

All just my opinion, and my best off-the-cuff arguments to try and support it.  

[lastings]

Never happen.,.  

but I think Jim Furyk's 270 yd avg drive distance would be the best argument for there being a possibility.  

[BamaWade]

3 minutes ago, zipazoid said:

I thought I saw that Lexi averages 280 off the tee...? If so, that (obviously) puts her at the tail end of the men, but still long enough for shorter PGA Tour courses - 280 down the middle works at Harbour Town. 

This is a good example for your point, IMO, but the problem is that Lexi isn't really 280 and down the middle.  She's #117 on the LPGA tour in driving accuracy.

However, to your point--at Harbour Town, I think she'd at least climb up from the bottom of the leader board.  I'd probably watch with some interest.  Even so, I'd think making the cut would require a phenomenal week.  Lots of places at Harbour Town where she'd still be hitting driver to hit her landing spot, while the PGA guys would be hitting hybrids/irons, pitting her inaccurate club against their more accurate ones.  And though I haven't played HT, I've walked all 18 after-play (as recently as last week) and believe me it requires some major accuracy.

[klineka]

6 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

But... Not a valid comparison (relative to supporting the point starting the sentence) for a couple of reasons IMO.  1., Lexi is at the top (#3) in distance on the LPGA, and being compared against Snedeker (#169) on men's and Stricker (#173).  2., even though she is close to them in driving distance, I don't think their power would be similar.  Course setups on the tour require not only length, but height/stopping ability that is a function of power.  While Lexi's distance might get her around a ~7600yd. course, I don't think  

Snedeker or Stricker could both go out and have a chance to win pretty much any event they entered, its obviously not a contest if you compared the best female player to the best male player. Obviously for any female to have a chance, it would have to be one of the best, longest hitting females which is why Lexi's name keeps popping up

There are numerous short courses that people have mentioned in previous posts that are much shorter than 7600 yds, the course that the tournament was at last week, TPC River Highlands, played only 6820 yds, nearly 800 yds less than the 7600 you mentioned. I dont think there is anyone here that thinks a female would have a chance at winning at a place like Erin Hills. 

[BamaWade]

10 minutes ago, klineka said:

Snedeker or Stricker could both go out and have a chance to win pretty much any event they entered, its obviously not a contest if you compared the best female player to the best male player. Obviously for any female to have a chance, it would have to be one of the best, longest hitting females which is why Lexi's name keeps popping up

There are numerous short courses that people have mentioned in previous posts that are much shorter than 7600 yds, the course that the tournament was at last week, TPC River Highlands, played only 6820 yds, nearly 800 yds less than the 7600 you mentioned. I dont think there is anyone here that thinks a female would have a chance at winning at a place like Erin Hills. 

Valid points, and I threw 7600yds. out there as my guess at an average PGA Tour event without searching that one.  I may be way off.  But I'd stand by my arguments around power, and then women's power relative to their accuracy (in my other reply) to support my argument that it could never happen...my thought there being that the top of LPGA driving distance would have much poorer accuracy than the ~180 ranked driving distance PGA counterparts, which I'd bet, without checking, are near the top in accuracy.

(Edit re: average PGA tour course length):  Yep...looks like it's closer to 7300 yds.

Edited June 28, 2017 by BamaWade
Fact update

[klineka]

10 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

Valid points, and I threw 7600yds. out there as my guess at an average PGA Tour event without searching that one.  I may be way off.  But I'd stand by my arguments around power, and then women's power relative to their accuracy (in my other reply) to support my argument that it could never happen...my thought there being that the top of LPGA driving distance would have much poorer accuracy than the ~180 ranked driving distance PGA counterparts, which I'd bet, without checking, are near the top in accuracy.

(Edit re: average PGA tour course length):  Yep...looks like it's closer to 7300 yds.

I did see your statements regarding the power relative to the accuracy and I definitely agree. I certainly think it would be an uphill battle for any female. As this conversation has progressed throughout the day today, I think in a one day single round tournament a female would be able to compete and have a chance to win, but I dont think there is a female capable of putting together 4 near perfect rounds to be able to compete with the guys

[chspeed]

35 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

my thought there being that the top of LPGA driving distance would have much poorer accuracy than the ~180 ranked driving distance PGA counterparts, which I'd bet, without checking, are near the top in accuracy.

Good point. Quick look confirms this.

Top LPGA players in driving distance along with accuracy:

1. Joanna Klatten: 58.3% (148th)

2. Maude-Amiee Leblanc: 52.5% (151st)

3. Lexi Thomson: 68.8% (117th)

Meanwhile, the male examples that drive it about the same as the longest women.

Brandt Snedeker: 63.6% (65th)

Steve Stricker 74.3% (1st)

[chspeed]

Just wanted to add some more historical info. Michelle Wie played on men's tours 13 times in her career.

She made the cut once in Asia, and missed the cut by one stroke in the Hawaii Sony Open (at age 14!?).

Otherwise, all missed cuts, but not horrible scoring. I don't know the exact definition of "hang", but I would say that at that point in her career, she was almost hanging with the men.

Of course, the game has changed since then and become even more of a power game, but it's still interesting to read about.

Edited June 28, 2017 by chspeed