Girl Loses U.S. Junior Match After Raking Back Short Putt

[golfdu]

Someone asked a question about conceding to a deaf golfer. I am mostly deaf and I usually just tell hearing golfers to give me a thumbs up to concede my putt.

[iacas]

FWIW…

When I watch the video, I see a short (but not 4") - closer to 12" - that the player immediately rakes back, then I see Shepherd turn and say "I didn't say that was good." She later said her caddie asked her if she had conceded it, and that was her response. That's probably also why she turned - because the caddie spoke to her.

From an article about this: "The difference here, of course, is that Shepherd told rules officials she would have given Moon the putt had there been more time. Even tried to reverse it. But Moon incurred a penalty under Rule 18-2."

Moon's actions - her breach - didn't allow Shepherd to ignore or reverse anything.

Not for nothing (but close, since she's on record as saying she would have conceded it), putts of about that length have been missed before.

[DeadMan]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Really?

That says otherwise.

Then I didn't explain the nuance well enough. Shepherd herself didn't do anything wrong, but it still wasn't an honorable win because of the circumstances. I'm not questioning her honor, just saying I don't like the way she won, which I believe was completely out of her control. 

The fact that she was so upset afterwards and apparently crying even the day after the match means to me that she didn't want to win this way either. She just didn't have a choice with how it happened.

In the future, everybody assume that I'm not going to publicly call out a high school kid for something nasty like not having honor. If you read it that way, it means I'm not explaining it well. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Then I didn't explain the nuance well enough. Shepherd herself didn't do anything wrong, but it still wasn't an honorable win because of the circumstances. I'm not questioning her honor, just saying I don't like the way she won, which I believe was completely out of her control.

I don't think it was a dishonorable win, either. Moon did something stupid. I don't think there was any dishonor - by anyone - in following the Rules of Golf.

2 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

In the future, everybody assume that I'm not going to publicly call out a high school kid for something nasty like not having honor. If you read it that way, it means I'm not explaining it well. 

No thanks. I hate assuming all situations are alike for all people. Just be clear about what you're trying to say.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Actually it's not. It's in section 1 - The Game, not Section 3 - Stroke Play

When the rules say "competitor" they are referring to stroke play.  Stroke play has the player and his competitors, match play has the player and his opponent(s). 

There are many references to penalties and procedures which differ between stroke play and match play outside of the specific sections which cover those formats.  This is why the Definitions is at the start of the rules.  If you don't understand the words and how they are used, you can never really be certain of making a correct ruling.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Fourputt

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, spider said:

Poor sportsmanship by Shepherd.

I think it's poor sportsmanship to give yourself putts in a national competition.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When I watch the video, I see a short (but not 4") - closer to 12" - that the player immediately rakes back, then I see Shepherd turn and say "I didn't say that was good." She later said her caddie asked her if she had conceded it, and that was her response. That's probably also why she turned - because the caddie spoke to her.

From an article about this: "The difference here, of course, is that Shepherd told rules officials she would have given Moon the putt had there been more time. Even tried to reverse it. But Moon incurred a penalty under Rule 18-2."

Moon's actions - her breach - didn't allow Shepherd to ignore or reverse anything.

Right, like I posted earlier I'm really confused by the bad sportsmanship label people are applying to Shepherd. Moon isn't the victim here. Moon never gave Shepherd a chance to display good sportsmanship! Shepherd did try to concede the putt after the fact.

Once Moon raked the putt away Shepherd couldn't have just walked to the next tee, somebody, her caddy, the rules official, Moon's caddy, was going to say something.

[Vinsk]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

I'm really confused by the bad sportsmanship label people are applying to Shepherd

Because the young generations have (and are) being raised in the 'everybody wins mentality. No such thing as losing and you deserve anything you want. Heartbreak is to be avoided at all costs. Instead of the proper lesson to Moon which is tough break kid, but chalk it up as a good learning experience, it's 'It's ok Moon, some people are just mean.'

[Groucho Valentine]

Technically, i guess that girl was correct in calling the other player on her error. Ive never rooted agaist anyone to lose or have misfortune on the golf course - but man i was hoping that girl that destroyed in the final. That was the worst act sportsmanship I've ever seen. Completely classless. Its a shame she ended up winning. 

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

Once Moon raked the putt away Shepherd couldn't have just walked to the next tee, somebody, her caddy, the rules official, Moon's caddy, was going to say something.

Yes she could have. 

[saevel25]

34 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Technically, i guess that girl was correct in calling the other player on her error. Ive never rooted agaist anyone to lose or have misfortune on the golf course - but man i was hoping that girl that destroyed in the final. That was the worst act sportsmanship I've ever seen. Completely classless. Its a shame she ended up winning. 

In no way should a player be a victim for having the rules of the game enforced against another player. It is not classless to make sure your opponent plays by the same rules you have been playing the entire round.

First, I disagree entirely that it was unsportsmanlike.

Besides that, you are telling me that this ranks lower than some of the antics in the NFL? What about someone like Suh, the defensive lineman for the Detroit Lions. He is known to try to purposely injure people, like stomping on a players leg! You are telling me that this girl, who didn't have time to even say "that's good", is below a defensive lineman who is assaulting other players during a game in terms of sportsmanship!

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Because the young generations have (and are) being raised in the 'everybody wins mentality.

Really! Is that why every youth sporting event is giving out participation trophies? Is that why they say, "Winning doesn't matter, it's how you play the game that counts"? I have no idea were you are getting this idea from, but I can easily say that society has been heading away from this concept for years now.

8 hours ago, Fourputt said:

When the rules say "competitor" they are referring to stroke play.  Stroke play has the player and his competitors, match play has the player and his opponent(s). 

Thanks for the info.

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

I think it's poor sportsmanship to give yourself putts in a national competition.

Ditto. I am not sure she assumed it was given or not. She could have easily got caught up in the moment, and being upset with herself at missing that putt. It's hard to say with out hear say what was going on in her head at that time.

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

Moon never gave Shepherd a chance to display good sportsmanship! Shepherd did try to concede the putt after the fact.

I agree, I don't think Shepard was given time to even say "That's good".

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by saevel25

[Groucho Valentine]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In no way should a player be a victim for having the rules of the game enforced against another player. It is not classless to make sure your opponent plays by the same rules you have been playing the entire round.

First, I disagree entirely that it was unsportsmanlike.

Besides that, you are telling me that this ranks lower than some of the antics in the NFL? What about someone like Suh, the defensive lineman for the Detroit Lions. He is known to try to purposely injure people, like stomping on a players leg! You are telling me that this girl, who didn't have time to even say "that's good", is below a defensive lineman who is assaulting other players during a game in terms of sportsmanship!

Really! Is that why every youth sporting event is giving out participation trophies? Is that why they say, "Winning doesn't matter, it's how you play the game that counts"? I have no idea were you are getting this idea from, but I can easily say that society has been heading away from this concept for years now.

Thanks for the info.

Ditto. I am not sure she assumed it was given or not. She could have easily got caught up in the moment, and being upset with herself at missing that putt. It's hard to say with out hear say what was going on in her head at that time.

I agree, I don't think Shepard was given time to even say "That's good".

 

Im not a football fan. That girls actions were very poor form. Theres no explaining that away by hiding behind rulebooks. I wouldnt want to win that way. 

[MRR]

9 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Im not a football fan. That girls actions were very poor form. Theres no explaining that away by hiding behind rulebooks. I wouldnt want to win that way. 

"Hiding behind a rulebook" involves taking multiple rules together in such a way that the Rules as Written gives a different outcome than "Rules as Intended".  I see nothing of that happening here.  You and I have very different takes from the story...

Quote

“And then my coach was like, ‘Did you give that to her?’ I was like, ‘No.’

“And so I said, ‘I don’t think I gave that to you.’ Then I said, ‘I totally would have given that to you, no doubt.’”

She made a factual statement that she never said out loud that she conceded the putt.  To say otherwise would be lying.

She then opined that she would have conceded it.  Rather sportsmanlike to me.

I have a feeling that, by that point, her coach ran to the rules official to mark it in stone that his player won.  Even if that's not the case, the rules are black and white.  The actions are not in question; there's no issue on if someone intended to do something or if that "something" happened.

[Vinsk]

56 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

but I can easily say that society has been heading away from this concept for years now.

You're way off. Not sure what society you're referring to, but kids are pampered these days. I go to youth baseball tournaments all the time, soccer and basketball. They don't even keep score at many of the events. Kids aren't allowed to celebrate a win. Hell, even the NFL gives penalties for 'over celebrating' and these are grown men. Sorry, you're completely wrong on this.

[saevel25]

Just now, Vinsk said:

You're way off. Not sure what society you're referring to, but kids are pampered these days. I go to youth baseball tournaments all the time, soccer and basketball. They don't even keep score at many of the events. Kids aren't allowed to celebrate a win. Hell, even the NFL gives penalties for 'over celebrating' and these are grown men. Sorry, you're completely wrong on this.

Let me ask you this? How does giving out participation trophies, which celebrates not winning, instill the mentality that "everybody must win"?

Wouldn't not pampering the kids, telling them that winning matters at all costs, be the way you achieve a more aggressive winning mentality?

 

[jamo]

23 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Let me ask you this? How does giving out participation trophies, which celebrates not winning, instill the mentality that "everybody must win"?

Wouldn't not pampering the kids, telling them that winning matters at all costs, be the way you achieve a more aggressive winning mentality?

 

@saevel25 I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding @Vinsk.

[rehmwa]

Poor girl - she won't do that again.  Her mistake 100%.  Clearly she didn't intend to try to get away with anything, but just slipped up.

Sad for the other girl too - clearly she feels terrible to not have had the opportunity to do something to help the other girl.  Her coach boxed her in with the too fast timing of the obvious question (not his problem either - he was just paying attention - but a bit quick on the draw by not letting his player handle it) and her only "problem" was she is very honest and couldn't lie even to help the situation.  Nothing shameful there.  And her empathy for the other girl is refreshing and good to see.

All I see is avery honest girl that can't lie even if it personally would make her very sad to be in a position to not be able to help out someone else.  And another guy that made a mistake out out of carelessness.  People need to stop trying to make bad guys out of the situation.  Nobody was being evil or deceptive, and the penalties were placed accordingly - no wildlife was injured.

Edited July 31, 2017 by rehmwa

[Wally Fairway]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Im not a football fan. That girls actions were very poor form. Theres no explaining that away by hiding behind rulebooks. I wouldnt want to win that way. 

I'm hoping you are talking about Moon, her actions were poor form. To sweep the ball back before even giving Shepard a chance to concede the putt was very poor form.
Nobody is hiding behind the rule book; Shepard was asked a question and honestly answered and quickly stated she would have conceded the putt. Moon is 100% at fault, and social media is 95% at fault for blaming Shepard (the other 5% is tv media)

[Groucho Valentine]

2 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

I'm hoping you are talking about Moon, her actions were poor form. To sweep the ball back before even giving Shepard a chance to concede the putt was very poor form.
Nobody is hiding behind the rule book; Shepard was asked a question and honestly answered and quickly stated she would have conceded the putt. Moon is 100% at fault, and social media is 95% at fault for blaming Shepard (the other 5% is tv media)

I dont know what else to say other than you're wrong. 

[rehmwa]

3 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

I'm hoping you are talking about Moon, her actions were poor form.

there's nothing 'poor form' here.  she just made an innocent mistake and got the appropriate penalties.  learning experience. nothing deceptive or nefarious here.  (was there something untoward later in an interview or something?  or did she accept the penalty and was just sad or embarrassed about it?)