How long should the second cut be?

[Valleygolfer]

Saturday I played a course where the rough was high enough to hide the ball from vision until right on top of it. This made things very difficult and time consuming while playing. At one point I was fairly sure I hit my ball in this exact location, but ended up hitting a provisional only to find my ball on the hill 5 yards off the fairway buried in rough. This was consistent throughout the course and I often couldn't find my ball.

I thought, this is Saturday and the rough is too high for weekend play. This is nothing new for this course either because I read other reviews prior to playing, stating the same.

[saevel25]

I would say that the poll needs more options.

As long as it isn't something like a club championship, US Am. qualifier or Open, or State Am then the rough should be low enough that a golfer can spot the ball from a decent distance away. Lets say 20 yards (just picked a number).

[dennyjones]

I vote "cut to the top of the ball" only because I want to be able to find my ball easier.   i guess the cut is, what it is and I'm playing from it regardless.  

[mcanadiens]

If a course wants to establish a reputation as a tough place to play, and has the resources to back it up, do whatever you want.

For the daily fee places that hackers like I play, you got to be able to find your ball in the rough. Most of us suck anyway. Ball searches are the worst. My home courses are very hit-or-miss with cutting the rough. When they let it go for a week or more, it just isn't fun. 

[David in FL]

I like it tough enough that if you're in the rough, you're going to be penalized.  

Right now ours is just to the top of the ball, but it's Bermuda.  The ball goes straight to the bottom virtually every time.  It's difficult to advance the ball 150 yards if you're in it, and even shorter shots and pitches are very difficult to judge.  I consider it to be close to a half stroke penalty to be in the rough.  I like that.  Don't hit it in the rough...  

As to finding it.  A lot of that's on the players.  Too many simply don't learn to really watch their ball, and if necessary, to use landmarks (just short and left of the big dead tree) to help locate their ball.  That's a skill that should be taught at the very beginning....just like ready golf.

[BamaWade]

At my home club during the summer, our Bermuda rough is cut at least 1.5x balls-high, with some lush areas pushing 2x.  Like @David in FL says above, the ball goes to the bottom virtually every time.  Penal, indeed, and all our rough is primary--no first cut--so you'd better either learn to stay out of it, or play out of it.  

I'm not good enough to stay out of it.

But, I've learned how to play out of it.  8i is about as low as you can go.  I just hinge early and steepen, then feel like I'm turning the toe over aggressively as I thump down through the ball.  The result is a knuckleball that will run, run. run--so you have to take your medicine and play to open areas.  Around the green, if you're short-sided, you're hosed--there is no play to get it close; just try to leave yourself the easiest 20+-footer.  Get too delicate or cute, and you'll get another try.

Below is a pic I took last year.  (I think this might actually be a fescue mix...not sure).  However, it is a solid representative of most shots I face from the rough.  This was from a GW approach to a front pin that I came up just short on--a small-miss--just over the bunker but about 5' short of the fringe.  I crest the hill, and no ball!  Took getting right on top of it to find it.

I'm torn.  I actually like the challenge--it can be fun--and knowing how to play out of it is an advantage.  But mentally, it wears on you through a round, when virtually every single ball not hit onto the fairway or green results in a pained search.  Twice this summer already, I've lost two balls within 5 yards of the green--nGIRs!  One was a hybrid punch-fade from under some limbs I was quite proud of, and then Saturday's was a well-struck 54° that I hit just about 7-10yds. too far to a back pin (no friggin' clue how I couldn't find that one).  Bummer!  

My vote: In the interest of pace-of-play, keep it penal (it should affect the shot), but playable for daily fee courses and regular play.  For tournaments, feel free to toughen it up.

 

[Valleygolfer]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I would say that the poll needs more options.

As long as it isn't something like a club championship, US Am. qualifier or Open, or State Am then the rough should be low enough that a golfer can spot the ball from a decent distance away. Lets say 20 yards (just picked a number).

The poll was meant for regular play, not tournament. I think it should be long(er) for those. I agree with the 20 yards but once it landed in the rough is was pretty much unseen. I guess I am spoiled

[DeadMan]

Short enough that you can easily find your ball, but long enough that it's a disadvantage to be in the rough. I don't know the exact length for this, but that's what I would hope for.

[arturo28mx]

It is key to easily find your ball. At my home course on many holes you must hit over a hill, which means you cannot see where the ball lands.

[WUTiger]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

... the rough should be low enough that a golfer can spot the ball from a decent distance away. Lets say 20 yards ...

St. Ann's golf course is a 9-hole track near St. Louis International Airport.

It plays to par 34, but is an interesting setup. As far as grooming goes, everything within reasonable line of play is either fairway or first cut of rough - about ball high. That said, the rough line is dotted with 10-foot and 20-foot high broadleaf trees. You can find your ball easy enough in the rough, but  you often face a recovery shot: wedge over the trees, or punch under the branches to get back to the fairway.

Play moves along quickly, but it takes some skill to get up and down.

I wish more courses would follow a plan like this for non-tournament weeks.

[RayG]

A local course that opened several years ago had a similar situation. Go through the first cut and it was invisible. It was thick as molasses- If you did find your ball(usually by accidentally stepping on it), there was no play other than a wedge back to fairway...maybe.. if you were far enough off you might not make it. 6-8 inches of impenetrable, hosel grabbing stuff. Well, I think they had many complaints over the severity of the miss and the time it took to find a ball. After the 2nd or 3rd year it was open, the rough was trimmed immensely- it wouldn't settle down to be invisible. You could actually find it. But- the actual extraction was still tough because the grass was still thick and grabby. But you could get a hybrid to it and advance the ball much easier than before. 

 

Now, looking back, I could understand why they might have done it- a new course with small newly planted trees needed some protection. Trees have filled in and made a different test of getting out of trouble (or staying out of it, for that matter). It is easier to get out of the rough, but now the trees play a role in recovery.

Edited July 31, 2017 by RayG

[chilepepper]

Top of the ball for everyday play. Played Torrey Pines North a few years ago shortly before the tournament. You could be 1 foot off the fairway and not find your ball. I understand it was before the tourney but for everyday play it would back the course up horribly. Which it did. It was cool to play those conditions though......once was enough

[Buckeyebowman]

I understand your point, Valley! I once played a local upscale, daily fee course on it's first day of being open! The rough, bluegrass, was US Open penal!  I once walked withing 2 feet of my ball, which was just off the fairway, and if I didn't see the less than dime sized spot of white shining up at me from the grass, I'd have missed it!

About halfway through the 9, the pro came buzzing by in his cart and asked me how I liked the course. I told him I loved the design, but they had to do something about the rough or they would lose play! He told me he understood, but they wanted to let the course "grow in" a bit before they cut it back.

If your course is older than a year or two, they don't have that excuse!

[Zekez]

Since driving the ball in the fairway is my strength i vote really deep!! :)

[David in FL]

1 minute ago, Zekez said:

Since driving the ball in the fairway is my strength i vote really deep!! :)

Ha!

I admit, I tend to agree with that.  The guys I play with are all a lot longer than I am, but I tend to make up for some of it by staying in play and a decent short game.  Anything that I can find to offset some of their length advantage I'll take!

[billchao]

What's a second cut? 

[Zekez]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

Ha!

I admit, I tend to agree with that.  The guys I play with are all a lot longer than I am, but I tend to make up for some of it by staying in play and a decent short game.  Anything that I can find to offset some of their length advantage I'll take!

That is me exactly.  My home course is pretty wide open so the long hitters can be way offline (or even a little offline) and not pay much, if any, penalty.

[No Mulligans]

22 hours ago, chilepepper said:

Top of the ball for everyday play. Played Torrey Pines North a few years ago shortly before the tournament. You could be 1 foot off the fairway and not find your ball. I understand it was before the tourney but for everyday play it would back the course up horribly. Which it did. It was cool to play those conditions though......once was enough

Torrey almost plays as different courses, rough cut low vs rough ankle deep.  That kikuya is one of Torrey's primary defenses (length being the other).  Same rating and slope regardless of rough depth, but it might play maybe 8? strokes harder when the rough is deep and the fairways are narrow.

Edited August 1, 2017 by No Mulligans