Tough hole vs Gimmick

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, jamo said:

I actually kind of like that type of hole. It's an interesting change of pace, since a lot of par 5s are blast a drive, go for the green, wedge up (or putt for eagle).

I'm trying to think of holes I'd consider gimmicky and I'm having a tough time. You hear that term mostly related to the 17th at Sawgrass, which I can understand, but no local holes come to mind.

I guess the best example I can think of would be courses that have super fast greens and cut their holes on big slopes. But that's not hole-specific.

Huh.  The 17th at Sawgrass is the last hole that I'd consider gimmicky.  It's very straight forward.  Just hit a short iron or wedge to a relatively big green.

The difficulty lies in knowing the penalty for hitting a poor shot.  Mentally it can be a challenge, but that's not a gimmick, at least to my thinking.

[tristanhilton85]

Cross Creek in Temecula has a bunch of gimmicky holes. @iacas, @mvmac, and @Golfingdad can attest to that. The Champions Club at the Retreat in the Corona area is also bad.

[RussUK]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Eh, par is just a number. Oakmont has a 300-yard par three, after all.

Crikey, one of the course's i play has a 248 yard par 4!! Its well protected though to prevent going for the green.

[Marty2019]

9 hours ago, David in FL said:

Huh.  The 17th at Sawgrass is the last hole that I'd consider gimmicky.  It's very straight forward.  Just hit a short iron or wedge to a relatively big green.

The difficulty lies in knowing the penalty for hitting a poor shot.  Mentally it can be a challenge, but that's not a gimmick, at least to my thinking.

I agree.  The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is very easy for the pros to hit if all they're trying to do is hit the green.  If they want a birdie they have to risk the water, and on some days, if all they try to do is hit the middle of the green, they are left with a difficult 2-putt. 

I don't think it's gimmicky at all.  I think it's a great hole. 

[saevel25]

15 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

I agree.  The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is very easy for the pros to hit if all they're trying to do is hit the green.  If they want a birdie they have to risk the water, and on some days, if all they try to do is hit the middle of the green, they are left with a difficult 2-putt. 

It's not a difficult green to putt. Maybe if you had Tiger's putt, back of the green to the front.

TPC #17 isn't a gimmicky hole.

I don't find many holes to be gimmicky.

Edited November 29, 2017 by saevel25

[Jack Watson]

There's one par three I play once in a blue moon that's elevated tee and plays about 165 from the whites and 200 from the tips.

Theres no miss right or left-right will go down the canyon gone into bushes left goes into bushes on the canyon wall.  The green is two tiered and narrow and deep.  Long will roll fifty plus yards down and short is into a very deep bunker.

Borderline gimmick to me.  If the green were large that would be one thing but it's just a small target with no miss...

 

[klineka]

16 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

When I think of a "gimmicky" hole, I think of holes where a single feature is used to add interest to an otherwise boring/stupid/poorly designed hole.

For example, a completely boring straightaway par-4...but then you throw a cross-wise creek between 200 and 250 yards, so it "makes you think" (yeah, sure).  Or, a boring, ugly par-3, with a boring green, that they lengthen to 250 yards just so it's "unique" or "challenging".  Or a boring, dumb par-5 that forces a layup by having a tree in the middle of the fairway, so they can call it "risk/reward".

To me, those are "gimmicks".

Things like using too many blind shots, or forced carries, are just bad design...not gimmicks.

I dont understand how this is an example of a gimmick. If gives you two options. Lay up and have a longer approach into the green, or go for it and if you clear the creek then you have a shorter approach in. In my opinion, that makes the hole more challenging, since it will require either a very solid long iron/hybrid shot to get GIR if you lay up, or a very solid tee shot if you choose to try and clear the creek. 

I dont understand how forcing the player to make a decision of which club to hit off the tee is a gimmick. If long irons and hybrids are your strength, play to your strength. If driver is your strength, play to your strength. 

[Marty2019]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

It's not a difficult green to putt. Maybe if you had Tiger's putt, back of the green to the front.

TPC #17 isn't a gimmicky hole.

I don't find many holes to be gimmicky.

Absolutely, it's not a gimmicky hole at all. 

But in regards to whether it is a difficult putt, as I recall, on one of the early days, not Sunday, the pin is in the front of the green, so I remember a lot of guys going for the pin and winding up short and in the water.  And of the ones that make it, if they play safe and put their shot beyond the pin, that's a downhill putt.  And on Sunday, when the pin is on the far right, if they play safe for the middle of the green, again that's a downhill putt and sometimes with a huge break on it.  On either of those pin placements, putting from the middle of the green is no bargain. 

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

But in regards to whether it is a difficult putt, as I recall, on one of the early days, not Sunday, the pin is in the front of the green, so I remember a lot of guys going for the pin and winding up short and in the water.

Then they need to read LSW

6 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

And of the ones that make it, if they play safe and put their shot beyond the pin, that's a downhill putt. 

Downhill putts are not overly difficult. Length pretty much dictates the difficulty of a putt. If I remember they really do not put the pin right next to the slope such that it is not makeable from the 2nd tier.

 

[p1n9183]

I will say a "gimmicks" hole it the one that don´t give you a safe zone to miss your shots, like the 17th at TPC Sawgrass or the ones that put a hazard/tree in the middel of the fairway. In both there are no room for proper strategy and course management.    
I played a similar Par 3 a month ago in an international tournament. First round played 230 and the second 210. With water on the left and 20 yards in front of the green. It was a "gimmick" hole? Not for me, i can play right of the green and still have chance of par. A made par both days aiming at the rigth part of the green. It was really hard but nothing more than that.

[Golfingdad]

13 hours ago, David in FL said:

Huh.  The 17th at Sawgrass is the last hole that I'd consider gimmicky.  It's very straight forward.  Just hit a short iron or wedge to a relatively big green.

The difficulty lies in knowing the penalty for hitting a poor shot.  Mentally it can be a challenge, but that's not a gimmick, at least to my thinking.

 

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

TPC #17 isn't a gimmicky hole.

Guys, check this out:

Quote

gim·mick

ˈɡimik/

noun

 

1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.

@jamo is right ... the 17th at Sawgrass is the poster child of gimmicky holes.  Heck, for that matter, pretty much all of Pete Dye's entire courses probably qualify. ;)

I think what you guys are probably defining, and very likely what OP is actually asking, is if a hole is tricky to the point of being unfair, rather than just tough.  By that definition, I'd agree with the two of you that Sawgrass 17 doesn't qualify.

It's definitely a the gimmick hole though.

[David in FL]

29 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

 

Guys, check this out:

@jamo is right ... the 17th at Sawgrass is the poster child of gimmicky holes.  Heck, for that matter, pretty much all of Pete Dye's entire courses probably qualify. ;)

I think what you guys are probably defining, and very likely what OP is actually asking, is if a hole is tricky to the point of being unfair, rather than just tough.  By that definition, I'd agree with the two of you that Sawgrass 17 doesn't qualify.

It's definitely a the gimmick hole though.

Ha, true dat!  

I think most of us are thinking more of this though...

From Merriam-Webster:

gimmick

noun   gim·mick   \  ˈgi-mik \

2a : an important feature that is not immediately apparent : catch

[rehmwa]

US Open - Was it Chambers Bay where some of the holes we'd see that a shot clear off to one side or the back was needed to then allow the ball to roller coaster (mini-golf) along a weird roll back to get to the hole?

So that's a 'gimmick' when you need special knowledge in order to take advantage of a cutesy layout....

Personally, I found that amazingly entertaining, but not a hole I'd like to play the first time, but love to come back and play 'again' once I've seen some of the 'tricks' to play the course.......

For pros, that's great, they do their homework and map the greens and everything and get practice rounds, etc, but for just a regular player, it's nice to be able to conceivably play a round with just a course map and eyeballs and a range finder.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by rehmwa

[GST1974]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 7:34 PM, mcanadiens said:

Call it whatever you want. 230-yard plus par threes can go pound it.

One local hole that I think of as gimmicky is a mid-length par-4 where the entire fairway slants severely towards a water hazard along the left side. Plenty of really solid drives go Red October.  The only safe way to play it is to layup very short and then whack one 180-200 yards at the green. 

 

Hitting a fade into the fairway could produce enough spin to prevent the ball from sliding into the water hazard.  Have not really tried it, but from a theoretical perspective sounds plausible.

Edited November 29, 2017 by GST1974
change content

[mcanadiens]

20 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

Hitting a fade into the fairway could produce enough spin to prevent the ball from sliding into the water hazard.  Have not really tried it, but from a theoretical perspective sounds plausible.

 

Yeah, a highly-skilled mammal may be able to do that. 

My first time I hit the super-fade (aka slice) behind a tree on the right. Then the second shot got wet. My big hitting buddy cracked a bomb down the pipe and damn near crapped himself when it bounced, bounced, rolled and rolled and then made a tiny little splash. ... Second time, using the prescribed safe play, I hit a 7I barely into the fairway, whacked a 5W into the green-side bunker, got out and two-putted for a relatively-ok bogey.

Deffo gimmick hole. 

[rehmwa]

On 28/11/2017 at 11:34 AM, mcanadiens said:

One local hole that I think of as gimmicky is a mid-length par-4 where the entire fairway slants severely towards a water hazard along the left side. Plenty of really solid drives go Red October.  The only safe way to play it is to layup very short and then whack one 180-200 yards at the green.

One of my favorite local courses had two par 4's that hard tilt left.  Especially vs a good 270ish driver rollout typical.

#4 - (350 yards 2nd tee)  Unless you hit a VERY firm fade, you just can't hold the fairway with a driver long enough to get to a tiny (low odds) area about 80 yards short of the green.  I've done it a couple times, but it's not a good play - it's a 'fun' challenge.  If you roll off left, it's a lateral hazard (thick and thorny woods you can't even enter)  If you want to hit driver, you either hit the hard fade, or just plan a shot above the fairway on the right bailout when the grass is shorter, but it brings trees into play.  It's really setup to hit about 200 yards to stay short of the tilt, and a fade is still desired.

#14 - (373 yards 2nd tee).  Same thing, except you have to hit fade for anything longer than 225 regardless of where in the fairway you hit (left right middle) to hold the fairway.  A good bailout is almost pulling it left into the adjacent fairway and hope you can hit over a thin tree line, but tree line nonetheless - and I'm not a fan of hitting near other groups driving to their own tee shots.  But if you can hit a decent fade, it's a fun tee shot.  Can't aim right, thar be monsters there (and woods with a plethora of lost golf balls).

IMO - most fairways should at least have a flat spot to indicate the intended landing target of the designer.  It's still fun to pull driver though.

Edited November 29, 2017 by rehmwa

[WUTiger]

I view a gimmick as something odd in a hole design in which luck starts to override skill. One local course has a par 3, 170 yards from middle tees, that has the green set at a 45-degree angle with a big ridge across the middle of the green. Someone who ends up on the wrong side of the ridge usually three-putts.

Some holes end up seeming gimmicky if they just settle out funny the years after the course opens. Below is No. 15 at The Prairies, a public course opened in 1996. Despite being the shortest par 4 on back 9, this hole is No. 6 handicap.

The tree canopies have grown out to where you have a 15-yard wide oval in which to hold your ball on a downhill tee shot. If you land short in A area, you roll back against the treeline. If you land on the lower right edge of the red oval, you will run into the treeline in B area. If you end up around the left or right edges of the oval (see black dash lines),  you have to fly over tall trees or hit a punch and run under branches into a green with a steep front bank (no bump ons).

A USGA course rating team identified it as a problematic hole due to difficulty holding a tee shot in a playable position for an approach.

The solution is to bring in the lumberjacks and cut out trees outlined in gold. An additional benefit: Grass doesn't grow well on the edge of the fairways and the rough (no sunlight) and erosion could become a problem. Also, delimb the trees to the right of the red arrow coming out from the Women's tees: Give them a full shot into the fairway.

City money has been tight the last few years, and the crew is working on a hole at a time for course refurb.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

Despite being the shortest par 4 on back 9, this hole is No. 6 handicap.

Handicap is not a measure of the "difficulty" of a hole. It's a measure of where the poorer player is most likely to need strokes from a better player.