Would You Play A Tough Course?

[RayG]

"tough course" could be any course, apparently. some days are tougher than others and nothing other than crying and beer will make it better

[Shindig]

6 hours ago, Moxley said:

Tour level tough I'd probably play, major championship tough, I'd probably wait to improve more.

Or set a different goal.  If I had the chance to play a U.S. Open course set up for a U.S. Open (I'm picturing myself in the old U.S. Open challenge right now), I might set a goal of having an average better than double bogey of the listed par.  Or I might imagine the par is one higher on each hole and aim to have my normal score in relationship to "par" (in this case, the fictional par), which would be about the same effect as double-bogey.  Because let's face it, if you or I played a course that is hosting a major in its major condition, every par would feel like a birdie anyway.

A scratch player might aim to break 80 on that course.  You can still have fun with the right expectations.  

[No Mulligans]

I played Torrey Pines in PGA tournament conditions, I'd say it was at least 10 strokes harder than usual.  It was frustrating.  Everyone in the group I played with and a couple of mens club members I talked to after the round said they wouldn't play again until they put the course back to public conditions.

In what I call public conditions, 90% of the rough is cut down to where it is not that hard to hit out of.  PGA tournament conditions, 1) more than half the time you won't find your ball even if you are practically standing right on top of it, 2) I had to use a wedge to get out of the rough and not really try to advance the ball, 3) they had a unusual situational local rule that if you don't find your ball in the rough in 1 minute you got a free drop (in the rough), and 4) even with the local rule the pace a play slowed down to a crawl.  I guess I'm glad I played in those conditions for the novelty and experience of it, but it wasn't what I'd call a fun round.

Given you pick an appropriate tee box, Torrey goes from not too hard with the rough cut down to very hard with the rough at it's PGA height.  The south course is a 73.1/133 from the tee boxes I play, not as hard as it's reputation would have you believe.

This can all be disregarded if you can stay out of the rough.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by No Mulligans

[Fourputt]

I voted "No", but I'll qualify that with an "It depends".  My impression would depend on what makes the course difficult.  Excessive water in play might be a reason for me to pass on a course.  Forced carries would be a guarantee.  At 71, I've lost a lot of length, so being forced to make a long carry to a playable lie takes the fun out the game for me, especially if even after making the carry, I still wind up in a poor situation because I don't have the length to reach the spot from which the designer intended the next shot to be played.

I also get no fun from drowning a dozen balls trying to negotiate a course that's more water than dry land.  I play to have fun, and my game no longer lends itself to excessive difficulty.  I can get myself into plenty of bad situations on average courses.  I don't feel any need to subject my game to any more extreme challenges.

If a course is just long but without actually requiring long carries, then I may well enjoy such a challenge.  But these days length alone isn't considered a particularly difficult factor, especially if there are multiple tees to choose from.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Fourputt

[fishgolf]

Absolutely.  Most of even the most challenging course offer varying tee's to adjust hole length according to handicaps.  I just played Old Works yesterday and, using the copper tee's, it was manageable. It was actually a little less difficult than I had expected.  And the jet black color sand traps... oh man, these are really cool looking. 

The reason I don't play such course that often is price.  Even if I was a single digit handicapper, my "value metric" simply does not feel right about dropping $100+ for a round of golf.

[Fourputt]

7 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Absolutely.  Most of even the most challenging course offer varying tee's to adjust hole length according to handicaps.  I just played Old Works yesterday and, using the copper tee's, it was manageable. It was actually a little less difficult than I had expected.  And the jet black color sand traps... oh man, these are really cool looking. 

The reason I don't play such course that often is price.  Even if I was a single digit handicapper, my "value metric" simply does not feel right about dropping $100+ for a round of golf.

The price has apparently gone up quite a bit since the last time my brother and I played there about 5 years ago.  We used go up for 2 days, playing under a stay and play package through the Marcus Daly hotel in Anaconda.  I think the golf was about $60, and we usually played 3 rounds, 2 one day and one the next.  If it's $100 with the stay and play, I doubt that we'll go again.  It's a 3 hour drive from his home in Idaho Falls, ID - hardly worth it when there are some pretty nice courses a lot closer to his house, and we have a great selection when he comes here to Colorado to visit me. 

The last couple of times we played from the Limestone tees (6144 yards), my game just wouldn't play from the 6776 yard Copper tees any more.  That 630 yard increase is significant.  I can't imagine playing from the Slag tees at 7700 yards.  I also found that the fairway bunkers were not much of a problem, but those black slag greenside bunkers played quite different from regular sand.  We both always struggled with them.

[fishgolf]

20 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

The price has apparently gone up quite a bit since the last time my brother and I played there about 5 years ago.  We used go up for 2 days, playing under a stay and play package through the Marcus Daly hotel in Anaconda.  I think the golf was about $60, and we usually played 3 rounds, 2 one day and one the next.  If it's $100 with the stay and play, I doubt that we'll go again.  It's a 3 hour drive from his home in Idaho Falls, ID - hardly worth it when there are some pretty nice courses a lot closer to his house, and we have a great selection when he comes here to Colorado to visit me. 

The last couple of times we played from the Limestone tees (6144 yards), my game just wouldn't play from the 6776 yard Copper tees any more.  That 630 yard increase is significant.  I can't imagine playing from the Slag tees at 7700 yards.  I also found that the fairway bunkers were not much of a problem, but those black slag greenside bunkers played quite different from regular sand.  We both always struggled with them.

No, I was referring to other course, not Old Works.  As MT residents, up until 6/25, $54 buys us green fees, cart, practice range, and breakfast or lunch.  These rates are not offered between 6/25 - 9/10.  Next weeks round will cost us $65 with cart and practice range, but no grub.  Still a pretty good deal compared to this caliber course at most places around the country.

I didn't have much issue with the black sand and in fact hit better long iron shots from it as it's firmer. To me it kind of plays like wet/damp traditional sand traps.  With all the rain from the preceding days, we were getting very little roll out. This made it play a bit longer than it would normally.

[GolfLug]

Absolutely, unless the only reason a course is tough is because of rock hard, fast greens that are dome shaped with false fronts on all sides. Like Donald Ross greens on which  I putt like a little boy, in a dinghy...lost at high seas...in stormy weather. At night.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by GolfLug

[Buckeyebowman]

Sounds like you played Pinehurst #2, who's greens are exactly like that! We have 36 holes of Donald Ross golf in our area and none of the greens are like that.

I think Ross listened to the people who hired him as to what kind of course they wanted. Do you want to challenge the best players in the game, or do you want something the public can play? Mill Creek was designed as a course for the general public.

But, I will say this. The greenkeeper can make a world of difference. Back in the day the greens were slow and just would not give you the break you saw. The new greenkeeper is getting rave reviews. The greens are much quicker now, and you get the break you see. This is more to my liking. I saw quite a few of the AJGA competitors under read the break.

[allenc]

I prefer tough courses by a large margin.  The caveat is that it’s a beatutiful well manicured course that’s tough because of fast greens, lots of hazards and tight fairways.  I don’t want a course that’s tough because it’s in such disrepair that you can’t find a good lie, smooth putt, or your ball because there are too many leaves.

[JonMA1]

I played a course the other day that wouldn't have been terribly difficult, but the greens were faster than anything I've seen. Of the many parts of my game which are poor, putting is not my strong suit. But the other three in my group were struggling as well. And because of the contours and speed, even uphill putts would get away from us.

There was one that left a lasting impression. It ended well even though I failed so badly at the three skills. (In my defense, it was a putt from off the green and I think that bunker scared me into pushing it at the last second). But I never saw this coming....

 

But it was a great experience even if it was very humbling.

Edited June 22, 2018 by JonMA1

[billchao]

I voted yes but "tough" is a very subjective description. I don't play one of my country courses which most people consider to be tough, but it's not how difficult it can be that keeps me from playing there, it's how bad I feel the layout is.

[graham57]

Several posts point out that there are different factors that make a course tough. I have played a couple of courses immediately following a pro tour competition, and the greens were murderously fast, making it almost impossible for me to get an approach shot to stop on the putting surface. 

I have played a couple of really tough layouts, including Pete Dye‘s Teeth of the Dog and Dye Fore (which I preferred) in the Dominican Republic and a fantastic course in Spain, and find that my game rises with (but not necessarily to) the challenge. On the Spanish course (La Galiana near Valencia, for those who get the chance), I spoke to some guys from an English ex-pat golf society, who told me most of their members refuse to play there, because it is too tough. For me, it was one of the best golfing experiences of my life. My wife on the other hand, who has a lower handicap than me, hated it, saying it was too tough to be fun.

A course near us has 9 hilly holes with sloping fairways, big elevation differences, blind shots, etc., and 9 flat holes alongside a river. The overall slope rating is 136, mainly due to the first 9 holes. I invariably play pretty well on the hard holes and dismally on the easy ones!

[bkuehn1952]

I generally play from a set of tees that allow me to play a course with a variety of clubs.  If someone is paying the green fees and insists on playing the tips, I will go along for the ride as long as I can reach the fairway off the tee.

[jimnm]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:57 AM, No Mulligans said:

I played Torrey Pines in PGA tournament conditions, I'd say it was at least 10 strokes harder than usual.  It was frustrating.  Everyone in the group I played with and a couple of mens club members I talked to after the round said they wouldn't play again until they put the course back to public conditions.

In what I call public conditions, 90% of the rough is cut down to where it is not that hard to hit out of.  PGA tournament conditions, 1) more than half the time you won't find your ball even if you are practically standing right on top of it, 2) I had to use a wedge to get out of the rough and not really try to advance the ball, 3) they had a unusual situational local rule that if you don't find your ball in the rough in 1 minute you got a free drop (in the rough), and 4) even with the local rule the pace a play slowed down to a crawl.  I guess I'm glad I played in those conditions for the novelty and experience of it, but it wasn't what I'd call a fun round.

Given you pick an appropriate tee box, Torrey goes from not too hard with the rough cut down to very hard with the rough at it's PGA height.  The south course is a 73.1/133 from the tee boxes I play, not as hard as it's reputation would have you believe.

This can all be disregarded if you can stay out of the rough.

 

 

A friend of mine said he played the south in US Open conditions back in 2008 the week after the tournament. If they do this again in 2021, I hope to play it. Just for the experience.

[colin007]

I'm heading down to Bethpage Black in August, but I've heard it's more or less a pitch n putt...

[millsan1]

I am a new golfer.  I actually enjoy playing the harder courses near me.  I also enjoy the easier courses, but for different reasons.  The challenge of the tougher courses is rewarding.  The forgiveness of an easier course is more relaxing 

[Inferno2ss]

I recently started to take lessons and try to stick to courses and tee boxes that are appropriate for my skill level.

There are some really nice scenic courses in the mountains here in CO.  I don't mind occasionally playing them, but not on a regular basis as I get too frustrated and it tends to bring out my old bad habits. 

This is especially true of longer courses as it makes me feel like I have to swing harder so I am not hitting 4 irons and hybrids into the green every hole.   Clubs I struggle the most to hit consistently off the fairway. I try to stick to 6600 yards max.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Inferno2ss