Stop Lying About Your Distance - It's Pissing Me Off (Rant Thread)

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm not trying to win or lose. I have lived it both right and left handed in golf.  I played to a 5.5 handicap right handed swinging at 105 mph hitting a 7 iron from 150 yards to playing to a 5.2 handicap left handed swing at 120 mph hitting a pitching wedge from 150.  My best score with 400 rounds played on my home course in Kuwait is 2 over right handed and 1 over left handed. I wouldn't give up my speed that I have for anything because it has its place but it is only a weapon when it can be controlled through playing the game and understanding and accepting that and equivalent miss at 105 mph is going to be way worse at 120 mph.

Once again, you're a sample size of one.

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are taking it for granted that accuracy will  remain in tact and will not suffer with added speed.

For the umpteenth time… no I am not. Nobody here is doing that.

The stats are simply what they are. And, even Mark Broadie will tell you that as players get better, they get longer, AND they get more accurate.

You're again falling prey to the stupid idea that when someone gains distance, they lose ALL accuracy. Instead, if someone maintains about the same angular error, a few more drives will be in the rough or in bad areas, yes, but ALL of the drives they hit will be further and thus closer to the hole. Plus, players tend to get straighter as they get better and longer, too.

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I fly the ball 30 yards further lefty than I did righty with every club in the bag and my handicap is roughly the same.

You continue to give way the f*** too much weight to a sample size of one.

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Sure I had the potential to be better lefty cause I have more speed but getting better at golf takes time and everyday after your physical peak you are losing some of that speed even if you don't notice it.

Now you're arguing against yourself. This might be the only accurate thing you've said.

This is the last time I'm going to ask that you get back to the topic. You did a bit here with this post, which is why once again you were shown to be wrong… 😛

[Righty to Lefty]

16 minutes ago, billchao said:

When I first started playing at 23 I didn't have a driver, so as a complete novice I went for a driver fitting and was clocked at an average of 95 mph. Ten years later, I now average 110 mph. I can likely gain another 2-5 mph as my swing improves.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore but it seems like you're moving the goal posts a bit now. You started by stating an adult won't swing faster than when they first start and now you're saying people can swing faster as they develop better technique, which is exactly what everyone else was saying all along.

They both got the most out of their skillset. I disagree with the implication that Zach couldn't have beat Tiger, too. Yes, peak Tiger had more wins, but anything can happen in one round, one week of golf. Peak Tiger has lost tournaments and matches to less athletically talented players.

You said it yourself...."you were a complete novice"....your muscles had no idea what to do to hit a golf ball so you swung it slowly in relation to your potential speed.  Then over 10 years while gaining an understanding of the game your current speed is more inline with what your body was capable of doing all along.  Guess what...if I gave you a tennis racket and said serve it as fast as you can...the same exact thing would happen if you were a complete novice in tennis. I never said the physically dominant athletic wins all the time.  I said that the inferiors athletes wins will be few and far between.  Alabama football is dominate because he has the best players.  Lets see what Nick Saban would do coaching at Kansas University.  

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You said it yourself...."you were a complete novice"....your muscles had no idea what to do to hit a golf ball so you swung it slowly in relation to your potential speed.  Then over 10 years while gaining an understanding of the game your current speed is more inline with what your body was capable of doing all along.

Right… which is what we've been saying and you've been denying: better players tend to swing faster, and faster players tend to be better players.

I don't even think you know what your original point is at this moment.

4 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said the physically dominant athletic wins all the time.

Nobody has ever said you did. What the heck are you reading?

And yet another sample size of one… goodness, man.

[billchao]

48 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You said it yourself...."you were a complete novice"....your muscles had no idea what to do to hit a golf ball so you swung it slowly in relation to your potential speed.  Then over 10 years while gaining an understanding of the game your current speed is more inline with what your body was capable of doing all along.  Guess what...if I gave you a tennis racket and said serve it as fast as you can...the same exact thing would happen if you were a complete novice in tennis.

That's not what you wrote originally. You hypothesized that an adult picking up the game will swing fastest right around that time and that's simply not true. Now you're trying to say something different, which is exactly the counterpoint others have argued your original hypothesis with.

[Nail]

My handicap according to the Garmin golf app is 20.9. I don’t have an official one. My average drive is 266 yards according to the app. My driving is terrible though really. I don’t find enough fairways. I push or push slice a lot. If not I hook it. When I actually hit it relatively straight it tends to be longer than 266. I drove a 300 yard green on a par 4 last week and that was a wet cold day so not much roll out I don’t think (I had to cut a big corner to go for the green so I didn’t see it land)

I had one lesson and he said I have huge potential because of my speed but I have a lot to improve on. 

My only point is distance is well and good but if I don’t get consistent off the tee I’m going nowhere, but I can see how it has a huge bearing on the game because when I do drive it well I only have a wedge in even on our index 1 longest par four, that has to make the game easier.

 

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The evolution of the athlete proves my point for me and I studied this in college and it is true across all sports.  No one without the use of performance enhancing drugs, is performing above what they were already capable of doing in the first place.  If you were swinging at 100 mph as an untrained athlete, and you got some coaching, cleaned up your technique, and then got yourself into condition specific to your sport, and now you swing it at 115 mph, all you just did was realize your potential that you already had. Of course as you dedicate to a sport and train specifically for that sport you will find improvement. This is true of any sport...if you work at it... you will find improvement...until you reach peak performance. The only thing you can hope for is that your physical peak occurs in sequence with your comprehension of the sport you are participating in relation to your peers and that you can make the inevitable physical performance loss curve as shallow as possible through focused physical training.  

To me you're arguing against the argument you've made before.  You asked for data showing that a 15 handicap increases his swing speed as he moves toward being a 10 handicap.  You've postulated (guessed) that a player swings at his maximum speed when he first starts playing.  Yet now you say that as a player practices and works on his game, he DOES increase his swing speed.  Very few of us start out in any endeavor performing to our absolute maximum potential.  Individuals DO increase swing speed with instruction and practice.  Handicaps DO fall at the same time as swing speed increases.  I'm not claiming a cause and effect relationship between swing speed increases and lowered handicaps for any individual, although it might exist.  But increasing distance is a valuable tool in lowering scores.  Its not the only tool, but its an important one.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not claiming a cause and effect relationship between swing speed increases and lowered handicaps for any individual, although it might exist.  But increasing distance is a valuable tool in lowering scores.  Its not the only tool, but its an important one.

Oh, one exists.

Those 20 yards were gained in the simulation above by maintaining the same angular error, which means that fewer balls found the fairway and more balls found the bad areas when they gained 20 yards.

Gaining 20 yards dropped people's scores by 1.3 to 2.7 strokes. And that's just gaining 20 yards on their tee shots only - it's not giving them a scaled down boost in distance to every club throughout the bag. Just 14 times per round, with the driver off the tee.

[DrvFrShow]

On 10/25/2018 at 6:58 AM, JonMA1 said:

I agree 100%, but that wasn’t the point of my post. It was more that an intelligent golfer can make a statement about her game and have folks quickly indicate she’s likely incorrect in her assessment simply based on the average of the population or on their observations of others.

I'm not saying "hey, I'm not going to practice my long game anymore. Practicing my short game will lower my score." No, I'm not saying that. I have to look at the distances I commonly have to hit from on the course. That means

1) Tee shots - 12 of these are driver. One is a 6 iron (usually the 1st hole because I just want to get the ball in the fairway without a 'breakfast or lunch' ball) this is followed by a 7 iron approach. And the other is a 4 iron on the 2nd hole because I'm still a little stiff. I usually get called to tee off just as I take my first swing on the driving range so my warm up consists of multiple swings with an orange whip and lag putting. The others are on par 3s - the longest par 3 I usually see requires a 7 iron off the tee. The others can be a GW to 9i. 

2) Approach shots - every hole. Eight of the holes are par 4s. The average par 4 I see is 329 yds. If I hit a drive over 200 yds on those holes that does not go errant I'm within 125 yds of the hole. Fact based number. If I get a really good tee shot for me, I could be under 100 yds from the hole. On the longest par 4 I'm hitting a 7 iron.

3) Fairway shots with long clubs - I hit three of them per round. Usually one with a 3W and the other two with the 5H. The other one I can sometimes reach with a 6 iron, sometimes a 5H. The other two are long par 4s that were recently re-rated to par 5s due to bunker complexes and layout because the average woman didn't really have a chance of getting par. 

So what I need to practice at the driving range is 1) long game - driver sets up the hole. If I don't get that drive I'm dead; 2) being good with those mid and long irons is always a good idea.... because if I somehow duff a drive, I still have a chance to make par; 3) I do need to practice my wedge shots more.... a lot more. I need to probably hit about 50 wedge shots to target greens between 60 and 90 yds from the mat, and then some full PW and 9 iron shots. Then head to the chipping greens a couple times a month with a shag bag and chip for a half hour. It wouldn't hurt. The last won't happen until spring now since the weather is all messed up.

[Double Mocha Man]

On 10/27/2018 at 2:33 PM, DrvFrShow said:

I'm not saying "hey, I'm not going to practice my long game anymore. Practicing my short game will lower my score." No, I'm not saying that. I have to look at the distances I commonly have to hit from on the course. That means

1) Tee shots - 12 of these are driver. One is a 6 iron (usually the 1st hole because I just want to get the ball in the fairway without a 'breakfast or lunch' ball) this is followed by a 7 iron approach. And the other is a 4 iron on the 2nd hole because I'm still a little stiff. I usually get called to tee off just as I take my first swing on the driving range so my warm up consists of multiple swings with an orange whip and lag putting. The others are on par 3s - the longest par 3 I usually see requires a 7 iron off the tee. The others can be a GW to 9i. 

2) Approach shots - every hole. Eight of the holes are par 4s. The average par 4 I see is 329 yds. If I hit a drive over 200 yds on those holes that does not go errant I'm within 125 yds of the hole. Fact based number. If I get a really good tee shot for me, I could be under 100 yds from the hole. On the longest par 4 I'm hitting a 7 iron.

3) Fairway shots with long clubs - I hit three of them per round. Usually one with a 3W and the other two with the 5H. The other one I can sometimes reach with a 6 iron, sometimes a 5H. The other two are long par 4s that were recently re-rated to par 5s due to bunker complexes and layout because the average woman didn't really have a chance of getting par. 

So what I need to practice at the driving range is 1) long game - driver sets up the hole. If I don't get that drive I'm dead; 2) being good with those mid and long irons is always a good idea.... because if I somehow duff a drive, I still have a chance to make par; 3) I do need to practice my wedge shots more.... a lot more. I need to probably hit about 50 wedge shots to target greens between 60 and 90 yds from the mat, and then some full PW and 9 iron shots. Then head to the chipping greens a couple times a month with a shag bag and chip for a half hour. It wouldn't hurt. The last won't happen until spring now since the weather is all messed up.

Unless you're in Washington State east of the Cascade Mountain Range you can still play and practice during the winter.

[sjduffers]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:59 PM, DrvFrShow said:

It's my game from 120 yds and in.

Well, that's mostly your short game then. Instead of banging drivers and long irons at the driving range, hit some wedges and 8 and 9 irons, at a defined target, not randomly. Then spend some serious time at the chipping green and the putting green. You can't be a 20 index with such a good long game and not have your short game being a glaring weakness. You can easily save 5-7 shots (and maybe more) per round by practicing the short game.

Note: this does not apply to everyone. She's an exception in the sense that she has a good long game (because she practiced it a lot) but has neglected her short game to the point that it's costing her many shots.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 10/27/2018 at 4:45 PM, billchao said:

That's not what you wrote originally. You hypothesized that an adult picking up the game will swing fastest right around that time and that's simply not true. Now you're trying to say something different, which is exactly the counterpoint others have argued your original hypothesis with.

When you first begin to play a sport, your body is not conditioned for it even if you are in good general condition.  Once your muscles have adapted and are conditioned, which will vary depending on how much you play and practice, you will quickly gain speed.  If you already played a sport that generates speed in a similar way like hockey or baseball then you will reach this peak speed very quickly.  What you forget is that as you are getting better at the game you are getting older, which is taking away from your max speed that your body can achieve.  So in essence shortly after you take up the game you will be at a point where your speed is maxed out but your understanding of the game will be low.   This is only true if you haven't reached your peak physically.

That is why all prodigies start young. It is because the goal is to marry up their understanding of the game right as they reach their physical peak so that they can maximize their dominance. Also no one is playing golf on the course at their max speed.  Maybe on the driving range and in certain situations on the course, but everyone is giving up speed to gain control on the course. I have never swung it faster than I did within a few months of playing the game but I hit it better now than I ever did...just at 9 mph slower...simply because I am older and don't get to train and play as much as I would like, but also because my knowledge and experience in the game is ever increasing. I would have still lost speed, just not as much.  

This is not rocket science.  Athletes get bigger, faster, and stronger until they reach their physical peak at which point their peak performance will begin to deteriorate incrementally depending on how much can be maintain through fitness and playing the game. If you are fast...you were always fast, it's just your body wasn't conditioned for the results to show through. If your are past your physical peak and you begin a fitness regimen and you experience a gain in performance you are basically recovering lost performance but it will never be higher than the speed that you we able to produce at your physical peak.   

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

So in essence shortly after you take up the game you will be at a point where your speed is maxed out

Completely inaccurate.

Dude you’re so far off and yet continue to post. Stop long enough to read what people are saying to you.

[Righty to Lefty]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Completely inaccurate.

Dude you’re so far off and yet continue to post. Stop long enough to read what people are saying to you.

Remember when everyone thought the new ball flight laws were inaccurate?  Just because everyone is saying the same thing doesn't mean they are correct. If you are trying to tell me that an athlete can exceed their peak performance after their physical peak then you aren't reading what I am saying and comprehending it and you should stop and take a step back. 

No one who has played the game for any length of time past their physical peak will say that they swung it faster the older they got. If you took up the game after your physical peak and saw a gain in swing speed it is because you have conditioned yourself to play golf and your are recovering lost performance but it will never exceed your speed that could have been produced at your physical peak.  

I have an idea....measure your swing speed...then take 3 months off.  I guarantee you that you will not swing it as fast in the spring as you did before the golf season ended.  But after you have played a few rounds in the spring and got some range time in your body will acclimate to golf again and you will regain much of the speed that you lost from your period of not playing...but only to a point...and even though you don't realize it you will likely lose a tick simply because you are getting older.  Now did you actually gain swing speed?  No you didn't...you regained most of what you had lost from the previous golf season. Now imagine that same trend over 2, 5, 10 years.  That same trend will equal a couple miles per hour lost over that time even though during that time your handicap will be improving and you will probably hit the ball better than you ever have as far as smash factor. The losses can be minimized by an off season fitness program or getting swings in over the winter but it is still there. This is true of all sports...unless you take performance enhancing drugs that is and that is the whole point of PED's to begin with. They help an athlete exceed their max capacity but that comes at a price to the body and isn't sustainable long term.     

Edited October 30, 2018 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

8 hours ago, sjduffers said:

Well, that's mostly your short game then. Instead of banging drivers and long irons at the driving range, hit some wedges and 8 and 9 irons, at a defined target, not randomly. Then spend some serious time at the chipping green and the putting green. You can't be a 20 index with such a good long game and not have your short game being a glaring weakness. You can easily save 5-7 shots (and maybe more) per round by practicing the short game.

Note: this does not apply to everyone. She's an exception in the sense that she has a good long game (because she practiced it a lot) but has neglected her short game to the point that it's costing her many shots.

I feel like working on the long game improves my short game by nature.  If I can hit a target from 230 yards away then I can hit one from inside 60.  My short game seems to improve with minimal maintenance the more accurate my long game becomes.  When my driver accuracy is where it needs to be all other facets of my game are definitely peaking also.  Then I just try to get as many on course reps in and practice putting because I will then start to hit the ball tighter to the pin and have more realistic birdie opportunities.   

[boogielicious]

53 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Remember when everyone thought the new ball flight laws were inaccurate?  Just because everyone is saying the same thing doesn't mean they are correct. If you are trying to tell me that an athlete can exceed their peak performance after their physical peak then you aren't reading what I am saying and comprehending it and you should stop and take a step back. 

No one who has played the game for any length of time past their physical peak will say that they swung it faster the older they got. If you took up the game after your physical peak and saw a gain in swing speed it is because you have conditioned yourself to play golf and your are recovering lost performance but it will never exceed your speed that could have been produced at your physical peak.  

I have an idea....measure your swing speed...then take 3 months off.  I guarantee you that you will not swing it as fast in the spring as you did before the golf season ended.  But after you have played a few rounds in the spring and got some range time in your body will acclimate to golf again and you will regain much of the speed that you lost from your period of not playing...but only to a point...and even though you don't realize it you will likely lose a tick simply because you are getting older.  Now did you actually gain swing speed?  No you didn't...you regained most of what you had lost from the previous golf season. Now imagine that same trend over 2, 5, 10 years.  That same trend will equal a couple miles per hour lost over that time even though during that time your handicap will be improving and you will probably hit the ball better than you ever have as far as smash factor. The losses can be minimized by an off season fitness program or getting swings in over the winter but it is still there. This is true of all sports...unless you take performance enhancing drugs that is and that is the whole point of PED's to begin with. They help an athlete exceed their max capacity but that comes at a price to the body and isn't sustainable long term.     

 

39 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I feel like working on the long game improves my short game by nature.  If I can hit a target from 230 yards away then I can hit one from inside 60.  My short game seems to improve with minimal maintenance the more accurate my long game becomes.  When my driver accuracy is where it needs to be all other facets of my game are definitely peaking also.  Then I just try to get as many on course reps in and practice putting because I will then start to hit the ball tighter to the pin and have more realistic birdie opportunities.   

I'm not sure what your points are with these posts with respect to the subject of this thread. If you want to start a thread about swing speed and age, or experience, please start it. This thread is more about the internet exaggeration of distance. What you are posting really doesn't apply.

Thanks.

[iacas]

I'll be brief because @boogielicious said it already: you aren't talking about the same thing at all anymore.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Remember when everyone thought the new ball flight laws were inaccurate?

No. Seriously.

Never mind that it's silly to say something like "remember when people thought the Earth was flat?" to support your position here. Your position here - until you shifted to some completely off topic thing - is wrong, and there's plenty of data to support that you're wrong.

Remember, you argued against statements - sorry - truths like this:

On 10/25/2018 at 4:51 PM, iacas said:

Better players tend to swing faster, and players who swing faster tend to be better players.

Now you're changing the topic.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Just because everyone is saying the same thing doesn't mean they are correct.   

I agree, but what makes them correct is their accuracy.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If you are trying to tell me that an athlete can exceed their peak performance after their physical peak then you aren't reading what I am saying and comprehending it and you should stop and take a step back.

Nobody's really said anything about that, because that's not what we've been talking about… but even if we had, you're still incorrect.

I am a better golfer at 40 than I was at 25. I swing faster and I shoot better scores. @mvmac is a better player at his age now than he was at his physical peak at, I don't know, age 22 or 25 or whatever. I have a number of golfers who are hitting the ball as far as ever… and they're on the wrong side of 30, 35, even 40.

It can happen. It happens fairly often.

But again, all of this stuff is off topic. You're making an argument that's not only wrong, but not what anyone has ever really talked about. Will a 60-year-old swing as fast as a 25-year old? Probably not.

Let me be clear: your recent diversion away from my quoted words above is completely off topic.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If you took up the game after your physical peak and saw a gain in swing speed it is because you have conditioned yourself to play golf and your are recovering lost performance but it will never exceed your speed that could have been produced at your physical peak.

Nobody has been talking about that.

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I have an idea....measure your swing speed...then take 3 months off. I guarantee you that you will not swing it as fast in the spring as you did before the golf season ended.  But after you have played a few rounds in the spring and got some range time in your body will acclimate to golf again and you will regain much of the speed that you lost from your period of not playing...but only to a point...and even though you don't realize it you will likely lose a tick simply because you are getting older.  Now did you actually gain swing speed?  No you didn't...you regained most of what you had lost from the previous golf season. Now imagine that same trend over 2, 5, 10 years.  That same trend will equal a couple miles per hour lost over that time even though during that time your handicap will be improving and you will probably hit the ball better than you ever have as far as smash factor.

To attempt to bring this back, a few very pointed comments:

• You can't guarantee this at all. Not one bit. A person can take time off from golf and get in better shape and gain actual swing speed.
• Golfers who improve their technique often end up swinging faster. You seem to completely keep missing this point. Improvements in technique can and often (more often than not) improve swing speed. Better sequencing, a better kinetic chain, can result in an increased swing speed.
• Golfers of all ages can learn to swing faster and train to swing faster. Click the SuperSpeed ad at the bottom of the site for one such example.

You are wrong.

The only way you're "correct" is if you hang your hat on this mythical idea of "potential" or something, in which case you'll get no argument at all. But hanging your hat there is pointless. People don't realize their potential at the same time as their physical peak, and the data still supports this simple fact:

On 10/25/2018 at 4:51 PM, iacas said:

Better players tend to swing faster, and players who swing faster tend to be better players.

So this is our last request, @Righty to Lefty: please stick to the topic.

I suspect, though, that this diversion away from the OP is short-lived, because you cannot argue against some basic facts:

• Improving technique often increases swing speed.
• Better players tend to have higher swing speeds than worse players.
• Higher swing speed players tend to have lower handicaps than slower swing speed players.

Those are facts. Deny them all you wish, or try to talk about some weird idea of "potential" in a 25-year-old 32-handicap golfer, or find other ridiculously small sample sizes that don't prove anything… But stick to the actual topic.

---

P.S. That's me being brief, yes. 🙂

[Lihu]

13 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

No one who has played the game for any length of time past their physical peak will say that they swung it faster the older they got. 

I would 😁

My physical peak was at 27 to 32. I could do 1 finger pull-ups. Actually, just once. 

But the older you get the more athletic you were. 😂😂🤪😂

[BallMarker]

Golfers, and fisherman, are two biggest liars.

lol