Overrated/Underrated (Golf) Topic

[iacas]

Here's how this topic will go. I'll start with a generalized "idea" or statement or something, and any reply to that topic should quote just that statement and reply "Underrated" or "Overrated" and a brief description of why they feel that way.

The additional Rules are simple:

1. After a minimum of three replies and twelve hours of no new responses, anyone can switch the topic, either in a response including the Overrated/Underrated response to the previous topic, or in a new response.
2. Rating of the previous topic then ceases, and all responses must be of the new topic.
3. The topics can be anything from the world of golf.
4. Number the topics sequentially, and post the topics in large, bold, red font so that they stand out and we can keep track of them.
5. You cannot say "neither" or "just right" - you must pick Underrated or Overrated; no fence-sitting is allowed.
6. As long as the topic is still “alive” and you have already posted your answer, you can engage in discussing the topic with others.

Try to choose interesting topics, or we'll struggle to get to three votes and thus struggle to reach a point where someone can choose the new topic.

Here's the first topic.

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Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

[Pretzel]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underrated. So many people discount how much of an impact it makes on your scores to play par 5's like a par 4, or even just being able to get close to the green in two even if you're not on the green itself. Laying up to your "comfortable yardage" somewhere 100-150 yards out will almost always be worse than getting the ball closer than that if you're capable.

[boogielicious]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underated. The two times I’ve reached in two, I’ve got Eagle and Birdie. The ability to get there will lower scores. Now we’ve got to take in consideration the hazards and gray areas, but if you can reach safely, then try. 

[Phil McGleno]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underrated - Despite what we know now about laying up versus getting there-REACHING the green in general-people still do not seem to value getting to the green as much as they should.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.419.2018.html

Luke List had 283 chances to go for the green. He went for it 222 times and shot -145 under par-0.65 under par per time. He was -4 of 61 or just -0.06 under par per non-go-for-it.

[klineka]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underrated - I think this is underrated because most people will score lower being on the green in 2 shots facing a 60 foot eagle putt compared to having a 20 yd chip/pitch shot for their 3rd shot.

Even if you can't reach the green in two, by at least going for it/advancing your ball as far as safely possible with your second shot, on average your 3rd shot will have a much closer proximity to the hole compared to if you hit driver, 7 iron, and still had 100 yds left for your 3rd. 

Stat – Going for the Green

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Strokes Gained | Greens in Regulation | Accuracy from Fairway | Accuracy from Rough | Scoring | Going for it | HoleOuts, Other

This stat tells a lot about it, look at the relative to par score when they successfully get on the green vs their score relative to par when they dont go for the green. Quite a few guys are actually over par or close to even when they dont go for it.   

Brooks Koepka is a great example. When he went for the green in 2018, he was -74 to par. When he didnt go for the green, he was -3 to par. 

Even someone like Phil Mickelson who is considered to have a great short game is -103 to par when going for it and only -10 to par when not going for it.

**Edit**@Phil McGleno thought similar as I did, just barely beat me with the link.

Edited December 3, 2018 by klineka

[Herkimer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underrated.  Isn't it kind of obvious that having three putts for par is much better than having two putts for par?  Or two putts for birdie is better than one putt for birdie?  

However, it's not essential. When Zach Johnson won the Masters, he never reached any of the par fives in two.  (His wedge play was obviously phenomenal that week.) This, however, does not change the fact that reaching a par 5 in two strokes is nevertheless underrated.

[foxhole88]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underrated for Professionals - yes.  Overrated for most amateurs.  On most Par 5's you are bringing in penalty strokes into play from either going O.B. or water hazzards, which brings double and triple bogeys into play.  If there are only bunkers and rough to be concerned about - then yes go for it, but if you are 200+ out and there is water or tight O.B. looming on a wayward shot with a hybrid or wood shot and those arent your most comfortable clubs - then playing it as a 3 shot hole may be the nest way to go.  You can still get a birdie with a good approach shot or a great putt.    

[iacas]

Guys, follow the rules and guidelines, please. This includes:

• Quote the current topic before giving your response.
• Don't change the topic until the old one has died down AND three posts have been submitted.

Both of those have been ignored by several people already.

I re-wrote the rules in the OP so that they're clearer.

[Buckeyebowman]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

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Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

 

Underrated. Although there are precious few par 5's i can reach in two anymore, I will always hit the longest club I can for my second shot depending on lie and what the shot presents. Even if I can't reach, I still want to be as close to the green as possible. 

Hope I did this right.

[ChetlovesMer]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

 

Underrated. Just having the ability to reach it in 2 is a huge advantage. Here's my point. In my only VLOG (by the way, not to change topics but making yourself a VLOG is underrated as well.) I teed off on the par 5 fourth hole and knocked it in the water. Because I knew I could often hit that green in 2, I was able to confidently knock my 3rd shot (2nd shot plus the drop) up next to the green. Get up and down and still make par. 

Back in the day, I would have had to lay up on my 3rd shot to a "comfortable distance" then worse case scenario I miss the green from that comfortable distance. Now I have to get up and down to avoid double bogey. It's a huge difference not only in score but in mindset. 

I realize that is a sample size of one, but I think the mindset plus score concept is sound, and I'm sure I could come up with a number of other examples. 

[HJJ003]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Underated.

At worst it is a really easy par, and you know that scores are lower the sooner you reach the green safely so it’s a no brainer to me. 

[saevel25]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Since the topic is reaching par fives in two, I might say overrated since most people can't reach par 5's in two to begin with. If the topic was, advance the ball as far as possible, then I would say underrated.

Since this topic is usually comparing laying up to a favorite yardage versus going for it, I will say it's underrated going for par fives in two.

Most people are giving up 60+ yards in distance laying up. Assuming most people lay up to about 100 yards. That seems common. Which means, even from the rough they would score better closer to the hole than from the fairway laying up. 

 

[Moxley]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

Overrated - for the majority of golfers who need a wood (or long hybrid)  to reach in 2, they will both poor at escaping trouble and proficient at hitting wedges/short irons , making the layup a better choice for getting par. Short misses are a particular problem since some par 5's have a hazard short, and it's probably the most popular miss. For those who can hit their 5 irons 200 yards , sure, but then that's the minority, and I still feel they'd often only gain a little on laying up. 

 

[Bucki1968]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

All I know is the more greens I hit in regulation, the better my score will be. I read somewhere.. that the old saying "drive for show and putt for dough" is no longer the case. That being said., I have always thought that I don't care how good a putter you are if you are 75 yards behind me off the tee and in the woods. So I gotta say....UNDERRATED.

Edited December 4, 2018 by iacas
please follow directions

[cutchemist42]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

I would say underrated. The more distance you can cover in a shot, the better. It would take a pretty hazardous guarded green area to make me layup. Personally, my home course does not have highly guarded greens so I always go for it. (One out of the 4 is unreachable for me from my tees)

Anyone have an example of a green where the distance is fine, but the trouble around the green makes you layup?

Edited December 4, 2018 by iacas
please follow directions

[iacas]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Underrated or Overrated #1 - Reaching Par Fives in Two

My own vote, btw, is Underrated. Most amateurs don't have a clue how many strokes they can save by getting the ball near the green and following The Rule. If nGIR are great, nuGIR are even better.

34 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Anyone have an example of a green where the distance is fine, but the trouble around the green makes you layup?

There are plenty that exist. I always find it interesting when people assume that to be the case, though, as @Moxley seems to have done. @Moxley, btw, should contact Andrew Norrby and pick up a copy of LSW.

Here's one where going for it rarely makes sense:

The gap tree to tree is about 27 yards. The shot is often 220+ to clear the water. The green is quite sloped, so you can leave yourself a tricky pitch even if you avoid the trees, water, bunkers, etc.

But generally speaking, par fives are more like this:

Nothing much going on there, and closer is generally better.

[Moxley]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

There are plenty that exist. I always find it interesting when people assume that to be the case, though, as @Moxley seems to have done. @Moxley, btw, should contact Andrew Norrby and pick up a copy of LSW.

I didn't assume , I said some  - these are the cases where not going for is a no-brainer. I still don't often see the value in the ones that a more like the streched par 4's , because the 2nd shot will be over 200 yds, and my shot pattern once I go past the 6 iron (150-155 yds) is going to widen quickly, and by the time I pick up a 5 wood penalty shots are going to come into play as well as the regular 'in play' trouble. But I'm going to be able to hit 7 iron / wedge with good reliability AND sometimes have the option of taking danger out of the tee shot with less club.  Not always of course - it depends. 

Who is Andrew Norrby? is he the UK distributor of the book? From what I've heard the book is great, but I do wish there was a ebook version available because electronic is a format that I prefer.

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Moxley said:

I didn't assume , I said some  - these are the cases where not going for is a no-brainer.

I wasn't talking about water hazards short of the green, I was talking about when you said this:

4 hours ago, Moxley said:

Overrated - for the majority of golfers who need a wood (or long hybrid)  to reach in 2, they will both poor at escaping trouble and proficient at hitting wedges/short irons , making the layup a better choice for getting par.

The average golfer is much better at playing a short shot from the rough than hitting a wedge. You made the assumption that there is "trouble" near the green. Even if you're in a green side bunker in two, that's often preferred to having 115 in… because a portion of those shots from 115 might find that same green side bunker.

We can debate in generics all we want, but at the end of the day I think more golf holes are like the bottom example than that top one, and generally speaking, even amateurs are giving up shots laying back too often.

2 minutes ago, Moxley said:

Who is Andrew Norrby? is he the UK distributor of the book? From what I've heard the book is great, but I do wish there was a ebook version available because electronic is a format that I prefer.

Yep. That he is.

https://www.facebook.com/andrew.norrby

https://twitter.com/ANorrby