Chipping/Pitching onto Slow Greens

[hoselpalooza]

11 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The link talks about a ‘chip and run’ and a ‘pitch and run’, not a chip or a pitch shot. A bump and run tries to run the ball along the ground.

that's incorrect. "bump and run" is a different shot. see below. for all intents and purposes "chip" and "chip and run" and "pitch" and "pitch and run" are the same things.

Quote

Bump and Run: A pitch shot around the green in which the player hits the ball into a slope to deaden its speed before settling on the green and rolling towards the hole

 

11 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

You can define it however you want, but they are different swing techniques. 

yes, the technique for chipping is different from pitching. however, it doesn't make sense to define these two types of shots based on their techniques because the techniques used to execute each of them can be different for different people. e.g. seve's chipping style vs mickelson.

it does, however, make sense to a lot of people to define the shot based on how far you intend to carry it. need minimal carry and to get the ball on the green/turf quickly? chip shot. need to get the ball up in the air a bit? pitch shot.

[billchao]

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

seve used bounce while chipping to hit soft shots with less spin.

I didn't see anything about using the bounce on his chips, but notice how he hit his chip and his pitch shot to the same flag. It's the technique that differentiates the two shots.

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

mickelson's "hinge 'n hold" technique pinches the ball and produces more spin.

Hinge and hold is a feel. Phil's clubhead passes the hands through the shot. It's a pitch. Phil chips with his hands forward and delofts the club.

Also you don't "pinch" the ball.

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

chips don't necessarily generate more spin, especially if you use seve's technique and glide the club along the ground.

You can vary spin and trajectory both while chipping and pitching.

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

but even if you don't use his technique, consider the difference in spin between a 40y one-hop-stop pitch and an 8-iron chip from the fringe to a hole a few paces away.

Apples and oranges.

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

but i don't know many people playing non-links golf who would elect to run a chip over 15y of fairway, which i think is what was implied.

Why not? If I have the room to run up a shot and the pin is in the front, the chip allows more room for error than the pitch. The chip landed short will roll up on the green, the pitch landed short likely does not.

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

better definition might be this: pitch shots have more carry than chip shots

You can hit both shots with the same amount of carry. You keep harping on about the distance as if one shot can't be hit as far as the other. The difference is trajectory, which is a product of technique.

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

If I ‘chip’ with my LW, I can get it to check up pretty quickly. If I chip with my 8 iron, it will run out more.

Yea, this. I chip with my LW all the time. It doesn't run much at all.

27 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

it doesn't make sense to define these two types of shots based on their techniques because the techniques used to execute each of them can be different for different people. e.g. seve's chipping style vs mickelson.

Only because you're focused on the wrong things, and what people say they feel rather than what they're actually doing.

Chip: hands ahead of clubhead at impact, leading edge contacts ground, delofted face produces lower trajectory 

Pitch: hands in line or even slightly behind the clubhead at impact, bounce engaged, neutral face or even loft added produces higher trajectory 

33 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

it does, however, make sense to a lot of people to define the shot based on how far you intend to carry it.

No, it doesn't. That's oversimplifying it. You can carry both shots the same distance.

35 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

need minimal carry and to get the ball on the green/turf quickly? chip shot. need to get the ball up in the air a bit? pitch shot.

Minus the minimal carry stuff, this is about as close to the correct definition as you've gotten. Pitch goes up, chip less so.

You can hit a pitch or even a flop shot minimal carry, too.

[hoselpalooza]

@billchao, you're missing the point and this is getting borderline OT. if you read my comments in context you'll see the first few are replies to @boogielicious's comments to counter what he said, and now you're bringing it full circle by doing the same thing.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by hoselpalooza

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

better definition might be this: pitch shots have more carry than chip shots.

2 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

chip spends more time on the ground than in the air whereas a pitch is just the opposite.

I disagree with both of these.

I can hit a pitch shot (a flop shot, even) to a green sloping away from me where the ball rolls 2x or 3x or more farther than it flew.

I can hit a chip shot that bounces twice and comes to a screeching halt, not rolling out at all, particularly to an uphill hole location.

Defining those terms by things like you've suggested is horrible, IMO, because it depends on far too many things that aren't constant. The definitions would change - someone could make the same exact swing one day and you'd call it a pitch one day and a chip another day based on things that are completely outside the actual stroke made.

30 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

this is such a lazy response; why even bother?

I'm going to let you walk that one back slightly, and point out that I've made, what, 65k+ posts here. I've shared my definition of "chipping" and "pitching" multiple times, and Scott and Bill had already hinted at those definitions above, so I didn't see the need to type them out and explain them for perhaps the hundredth time.

So sorry I'm so "lazy" that I have made tens of thousands of posts, freely available, with the aim of helping golfers play better golf.

Once again, my definitions (the quick version):

• A pitch is a shot that engages the bounce or the sole of the club with softer wrists in the follow-through (the clubhead passes the hands).
• A chip is a shot that engages more of the leading edge of the club with firmer wrists that don't let the clubhead pass the hands in the impact zone.

That defines the techniques via the actual techniques instead of stuff that's just circumstantial.

P.S. I've hit chip shots 40 yards in the past. Sometimes they carried 35 yards and rolled 5, and sometimes they've carried 5 yards and rolled 35. 15 yards is nowhere near the limit of a "chip" shot.

[chspeed]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

P.S. I've hit chip shots 40 yards in the past. Sometimes they carried 35 yards and rolled 5, and sometimes they've carried 5 yards and rolled 35. 15 yards is nowhere near the limit of a "chip" shot. 

So what? I've hit chip shots 40 yds. too. Many times. Unfortunately, the pin was usually about 5 yds. away.

Badum-Pum! (I'm here all day ladies and gentlemen)

[hoselpalooza]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm going to let you walk that one back slightly, and point out that I've made, what, 65k+ posts here. I've shared my definition of "chipping" and "pitching" multiple times, and Scott and Bill had already hinted at those definitions above, so I didn't see the need to type them out and explain them for perhaps the hundredth time.

So sorry I'm so "lazy" that I have made tens of thousands of posts, freely available, with the aim of helping golfers play better golf.

i never said you were lazy, just your response. the number of posts you've previously made is irrelevant in this case. 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Once again, my definitions (the quick version):

• A pitch is a shot that engages the bounce or the sole of the club with softer wrists in the follow-through (the clubhead passes the hands).
• A chip is a shot that engages more of the leading edge of the club with firmer wrists that don't let the clubhead pass the hands in the impact zone.

That defines the techniques via the actual techniques instead of stuff that's just circumstantial.

thank you for including this. not all pros would agree with your "definitions", especially of chipping. just look at seve, luke donald, justin rose, i'm sure there are others... 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

not all pros would agree with your "definitions", especially of chipping. just look at seve, luke donald, justin rose, i'm sure there are others... 

I'm not saying this with any ill will toward anyone, but… I couldn't care less.

Just now, hoselpalooza said:

i never said you were lazy, just your response. the number of posts you've previously made is irrelevant in this case.

I disagree that it's irrelevant. But let's move beyond the meta discussion, eh? I don't agree with or like your definitions, nor your "15 yard" cap on chipping. And please understand, virtually every short game shot has a blend of "pitching" and "chipping" techniques - things are rarely "100%" pure chip or pitch. IMO.

[The_WetBandit]

18 hours ago, gbogey said:

Personally I have never experienced a practice area green that would give you results you could trust outside of a high end public course or private club and certainly not at a driving range (although yours may be different).  When I am practicing in such places I focus on am I landing the ball near my landing target.  I know how much the ball will normally run out, particularly if I am chipping, so I trust that if I land the ball in the right spot it will end up close to where it should be on the course.

THANK YOU

This is the answer I was hoping for and what I was thinking before posting this. Thanks for the reassurance

[edomingox]

I chip to the start of the green and let it run out.  Depending on the ratio between air time and ground time, that determines what club I use.  I never chip with my 56 or 60, that turns into a pitch shot.

ratios (air:ground):

• 1:<1 = AW
• 1:1 = PW
• 1:2 = 9 iron
• 1:3 = 8 iron
• 1:4 = 7 iron
• 1:5 = 6 iron

depending on how fast or slow the greens are, I go up or down a club.

To answer the question, I don't allow for any "checking" up on the ball.  That makes for inconsistent chips.

Edited June 10, 2019 by edomingox

[Cantankerish]

I hope this is not veering too far off...

I have seen pros chop at the ball in rough near the green.  In my own experience that is a recipe for disaster - so much so that in my mind I am keen to follow through in an almost exaggerated fashion just to make certain that I do it - so I wonder what circumstances benefit that chopping stroke.  I kinda don't even believe my own eyes when I see it.

[gbogey]

7 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

I hope this is not veering too far off...

I have seen pros chop at the ball in rough near the green.  In my own experience that is a recipe for disaster - so much so that in my mind I am keen to follow through in an almost exaggerated fashion just to make certain that I do it - so I wonder what circumstances benefit that chopping stroke.  I kinda don't even believe my own eyes when I see it.

In certain deep rough where getting the club on ball first can be difficult, you can/should play the shot similar to a sand shot where you hit behind the ball with an explosion shot.  This probably looks like a chop on TV.  It's an effective way to get out of deep rough but obviously distance control is a challenge.

[Shindig]

Just now, gbogey said:

In certain deep rough where getting the club on ball first can be difficult, you can/should play the shot similar to a sand shot where you hit behind the ball with an explosion shot.  This probably looks like a chop on TV.  It's an effective way to get out of deep rough but obviously distance control is a challenge.

Oh, that's what they're doing.  I should practice that.  I have definitely faced shots like that and hit them poorly. 

[DaveP043]

20 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

I hope this is not veering too far off...

I have seen pros chop at the ball in rough near the green.  In my own experience that is a recipe for disaster - so much so that in my mind I am keen to follow through in an almost exaggerated fashion just to make certain that I do it - so I wonder what circumstances benefit that chopping stroke.  I kinda don't even believe my own eyes when I see it.

The first thing to remember is that these guys are a lot more talented than you and I, and they practice those kinds of things regularly.  The pros can do a lot of things consistently that would be disastrous if I were to try.  For myself, there are times when the ball is sitting down in really thick rough, and I want to get the club to the ball with the least possible grass in the path of the club.  This means swinging down pretty steeply, and certainly looks (and feels) like a chop.  This isn't a finely controlled shot, its a get-it-out-at-all-costs kind of shot.  This is a little different from the semi-explosion shot that @gbogey describes.  I use that too, using a higher clubhead speed can cut through the rough, while the open face limits how far the ball will fly (and roll).  

[gbogey]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The first thing to remember is that these guys are a lot more talented than you and I, and they practice those kinds of things regularly.  The pros can do a lot of things consistently that would be disastrous if I were to try.  For myself, there are times when the ball is sitting down in really thick rough, and I want to get the club to the ball with the least possible grass in the path of the club.  This means swinging down pretty steeply, and certainly looks (and feels) like a chop.  This isn't a finely controlled shot, its a get-it-out-at-all-costs kind of shot.  This is a little different from the semi-explosion shot that @gbogey describes.  I use that too, using a higher clubhead speed can cut through the rough, while the open face limits how far the ball will fly (and roll).  

I think both shots will look like a chop.  In one case, you intend to chop at the ball and in the other case the thickness of the grass will often prevent the club head from moving forward after impact.  The results of both shots are similar - good for getting the ball out of tough positions but difficult to control distances unless one is a tour pro or similar skilled player.

[billchao]

3 hours ago, Cantankerish said:

I hope this is not veering too far off...

I have seen pros chop at the ball in rough near the green.  In my own experience that is a recipe for disaster - so much so that in my mind I am keen to follow through in an almost exaggerated fashion just to make certain that I do it - so I wonder what circumstances benefit that chopping stroke.  I kinda don't even believe my own eyes when I see it.

The abbreviated follow through is likely just a result of the grass grabbing the clubhead and slowing it down.

Open the face and take a big swing, trust that the loft will take care of the ball speed. It's kind of like a bunker shot in that sense, if you're afraid to take a whack at it, you're probably not going to be putting. It's definitely a shot worth practicing for those times you leave yourself short-sided.

[Buckeyebowman]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

The abbreviated follow through is likely just a result of the grass grabbing the clubhead and slowing it down.

Open the face and take a big swing, trust that the loft will take care of the ball speed. It's kind of like a bunker shot in that sense, if you're afraid to take a whack at it, you're probably not going to be putting. It's definitely a shot worth practicing for those times you leave yourself short-sided.

Yes. And there's a lot of variables in that shot. As someone else mentioned, you just try to get the ball on the green so you can putt. 

I remember from quite some time ago, a round in the US Open at Cherry Hills in Denver. Lee Trevino was paired with Bobby Clampett when he was the new, hot thing on the Tour. The first hole is quite a short par 4. Trevino teed off with a long iron and absolutely skulled it! Hit a worm burner about 180 and left his approach short of the front of the green. Clampett missed the green left and was buried in heavy rough. 

Clampett tried the lay the clubface open "explosion" shot. Unfortunately, there was a lot of air under the ball, which popped about a foot and a half in the air, and settled right back where it started! He reset, and did the exact same thing again! You could see he was really rattled. So Trevino steps in, telling Clampett he'll play up, giving Clampett a chance to regroup. Trevino then chili dips his chip and doesn't reach the green! 

Trevino started to laugh, and said something like, "Good God almighty! Can we go back to the tee and get a do-over?"

Even the pros can have trouble with that shot. 

[Cantankerish]

 

On 6/10/2019 at 8:56 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

...Clampett tried the lay the clubface open "explosion" shot. Unfortunately, there was a lot of air under the ball, which popped about a foot and a half in the air, and settled right back where it started! He reset, and did the exact same thing again! You could see he was really rattled...

 

 

I am not entirely confident even hitting my lob wedge from fairway due to that phenomenon. I can not see myself trying such a shot any time soon.

[billchao]

33 minutes ago, Cantankerish said:

 

I am not entirely confident even hitting my lob wedge from fairway due to that phenomenon. I can not see myself trying such a shot any time soon.

How do you slide the LW under the ball and pop it straight up from the fairway without intentionally doing it? That's a difficult shot to execute. 

The "phenomenon" of the club sliding under the ball sitting up in the rough can happen with any wedge with the face opened up. It's the difficulty of the lie combined with the pin position forcing you to hit a soft shot that stops quickly, that's when it typically occurs.