Feel Ain't Real Is B.S.

[CarlSpackler]

Countless times I have looked at a video of my swing thinking I was doing this, that, or the other only to find that I was sadly mistaken. I thought my hands were leading the club into the ball because it FELT like I was doing that, but video doesn't lie. You are of course entitled to believe whatever you like, but if you review video of your swing, I would wager that there are things that you feel like you are doing that you are not.

[saevel25]

38 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

this is exactly the point. feel can become real.

Not 100% of the time.

I'll paraphrase a quote Tiger said about his swing changed once. He said feeling like the clubhead moved 2 inches felt like it needed to move 5 FT. The best golfer ever, and probably the best golfer in terms of body recognition (the guy has went through 3 swing changes and won majors with each!) says that he needs to feel exaggeration to make a small change. He acknowledges that feel isn't reality.

[Shindig]

1 hour ago, dennyjones said:

My martial arts instructor always had us exaggerate a move because he said feel wasn't real.   It took time and practice for the feel to become real. 

Seems to be a common thread for people teaching physical skills.  I wonder if there's a similar view for teaching things like math or computer programming.

[Vinsk]

So in conclusion I don’t think @hoselpalooza knew exactly what the phrase ‘Feel ain’t real’ meant. All good now right?

[klineka]

10 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

Proprioception is a thing. You can improve your sense of body and golf club awareness. Believe that!

Quoting something you said in a different topic...

On 6/5/2019 at 2:26 PM, hoselpalooza said:

this is such a lazy response (post); why even bother? 

[CarlSpackler]

1 minute ago, Shindig said:

Seems to be a common thread for people teaching physical skills.  I wonder if there's a similar view for teaching things like math or computer programming.

The same is true for playing music. I heard a drummer get angry when several members of the band told him he was speeding up. He insisted that he wasn't but he was. Drummers who practice with a metronome keep tempo better than ones who go by feel.

[David in FL]

32 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So in conclusion I don’t think @hoselpalooza knew exactly what the phrase ‘Feel ain’t real’ meant. All good now right?

This, exactly.

[hoselpalooza]

39 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So in conclusion I don’t think @hoselpalooza knew exactly what the phrase ‘Feel ain’t real’ meant. All good now right?

no, i know exactly what it means. 

i'm calling B.S. because i think this catchy phrase can breed ignorance and discourage people from actually understanding what their body does during the golf swing.

case in point:

8 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Believe me, I can guarantee that many of the things you feel are not real. Pushing off from the rear foot, for example...

there seems to be some ignorance around here about "pushing off" with the trail foot. i.e. that it doesn't happen during transition or part of the downswing, which for many golfers, especially some powerful hitters, is 100% wrong. that's a separate discussion though.

---

i appreciate it can be difficult to make the mind-body connection. when i first started playing golf after a long layoff, old baseball habits crept in and i would cup/extend my lead wrist at the top of the backswing. to get the wrist flat i had to feel like i was bowing it à la DJ.

i've also had to exaggerate other movements just like others have mentioned in earlier posts. though i won't subscribe to this "feel isn't real" garbage because i think it can too easily turn into a cop-out. IMO to really understand movement i think it's much better to learn what body parts are involved and in what sequence, then figure out how to execute, first slowly then at speed. 

[klineka]

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

i would cup/extend my lead wrist at the top of the backswing. to get the wrist flat i had to feel like i was bowing it à la DJ.

Right, you had to feel something different in order to change your motion, because what your wrist felt like wasn't what your wrist was actually doing... Feel isn't real... What you felt wasn't what was actually happening.

You just disproved yourself man.

[Vinsk]

16 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

no, i know exactly what it means. 

[Missouri Swede]

39 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

i'm calling B.S. because i think this catchy phrase can breed ignorance and discourage people from actually understanding what their body does during the golf swing.

When I read/hear the phrase, I think the opposite of what you propose here.  I hear it as indicating that we shouldn't just accept that "I'm doing xxx enough"--or at all--without verifying it.  So it opposes ignorance and encourages knowledge.

[DaveP043]

38 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

i've also had to exaggerate other movements just like others have mentioned in earlier posts. though i won't subscribe to this "feel isn't real" garbage because i think it can too easily turn into a cop-out. IMO to really understand movement i think it's much better to learn what body parts are involved and in what sequence, then figure out how to execute, first slowly then at speed. 

Almost none of us can see what we're doing in real time, we have to rely on feel.  To make a change, you absolutely have to change the feel of what you're doing.  For many, maybe most, the feel needs to be exaggerated at first, a small change feels huge.  That exaggerated feel doesn't align with reality, that feel ain't real.  With time, the new movement begins to feel natural.  The movement is the same, the feel changes.  Feel ain't real.  For many of us, our swing changes gradually over time, even though we feel like we're doing exactly the same swing.  Unchanged feel, different reality.  Feel ain't real.

There's no question that we can learn to more accurately align the feel of a movement with the reality of the movement.  There's no question that some individuals have better awareness of their own movements.  But that doesn't change the principle that feel isn't generally an accurate indicator of what is actually happening.

And I don't think that's a cop-out.  Once you accept the idea that what you feel may not be what you're really doing, you can accept instruction better, you can be more willing to look at video or photos to see what's really happening.  You can utilize video to verify that your changed feel is really resulting in the desired change in your movements.  

[hoselpalooza]

9 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

When I read/hear the phrase, I think the opposite of what you propose here.  I hear it as indicating that we shouldn't just accept that "I'm doing xxx enough"--or at all--without verifying it.  So it opposes ignorance and encourages knowledge.

this is an interesting take, @Missouri Swede, thanks for sharing. 

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Almost none of us can see what we're doing in real time, we have to rely on feel.  To make a change, you absolutely have to change the feel of what you're doing.  For many, maybe most, the feel needs to be exaggerated at first, a small change feels huge.  That exaggerated feel doesn't align with reality, that feel ain't real.  With time, the new movement begins to feel natural.  The movement is the same, the feel changes.  Feel ain't real.  For many of us, our swing changes gradually over time, even though we feel like we're doing exactly the same swing.  Unchanged feel, different reality.  Feel ain't real.

There's no question that we can learn to more accurately align the feel of a movement with the reality of the movement.  There's no question that some individuals have better awareness of their own movements.  But that doesn't change the principle that feel isn't generally an accurate indicator of what is actually happening.

And I don't think that's a cop-out.  Once you accept the idea that what you feel may not be what you're really doing, you can accept instruction better, you can be more willing to look at video or photos to see what's really happening.  You can utilize video to verify that your changed feel is really resulting in the desired change in your movements.  

@DaveP043, i appreciate your thoughtful post and i agree with almost all of what you've said. thank you for sharing.

i've known two types of people who use the phrase as a cop-out:

1. people who mindlessly use swing aids/gadgets/devices without understanding the underlying mechanics (because feel ain't real) and then get frustrated when they can't recreate the movements when you take the device away.

2. those who disagree with someone about movement in the golf swing and argue "feel ain't real" instead of using data.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, hoselpalooza said:

though i won't subscribe to this "feel isn't real" garbage because i think it can too easily turn into a cop-out. IMO to really understand movement i think it's much better to learn what body parts are involved and in what sequence, then figure out how to execute, first slowly then at speed. 

This says it pretty well:

22 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

When I read/hear the phrase, I think the opposite of what you propose here.  I hear it as indicating that we shouldn't just accept that "I'm doing xxx enough"--or at all--without verifying it.  So it opposes ignorance and encourages knowledge.

“Feel ain’t real” is the opposite of a cop-out or excuse.

And still to this day guys are winning on the PGA Tour playing feels they KNOW are not real but which produce in them better mechanics.

[Vinsk]

2 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

those who disagree with someone about movement in the golf swing and argue "feel ain't real" instead of using data.

Can you give an example of this? I don’t see how someone could argue what another is feeling. They argue whet they’re actually doing using data.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, hoselpalooza said:

i'm calling B.S. because i think this catchy phrase can breed ignorance and discourage people from actually understanding what their body does during the golf swing.

Then you don't understand the meaning of the phrase. The point of it is to encourage golfers to learn what they're actually doing in their swings as opposed to what they think they're doing due to what it feels like to them.

Two people can make the exact same movement and feel different things to achieve it. The point of good instruction is to change the actual flawed movement and let the individual learn what that change feels to them.

[hoselpalooza]

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Can you give an example of this? I don’t see how someone could argue what another is feeling. They argue whet they’re actually doing using data.

yeah, like many other golfers i push off with my trail foot during transition/early part of the downswing. it's not a "feel" it's literally conscious movement. i don't magically shift pressure to my lead foot from my rear foot, i push/jump off of the trail side to get there.

whether or not this is physically possible is currently under debate though...

[Grizvok]

3 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

yeah, like many other golfers i push off with my trail foot during transition/early part of the downswing. it's not a "feel" it's literally conscious movement. i don't magically shift pressure to my lead foot from my rear foot, i push/jump off of the trail side to get there.

whether or not this is physically possible is currently under debate though...

To be honest, one of @iacas most recent rebuttals to your assertion in that thread actually makes a hell of a lot more sense mechanically than what you are attempting to propose.