LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[turtleback]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:02 PM, Darkfrog said:

Seemed like reluctantly though. He also said something about mixed emotions, and he didn't look particularly elated.

His only real choices are to go along or retire.

On 6/7/2023 at 12:12 PM, iacas said:

I think that…

• I think that at the end of the day the PGA Tour got a huge cash infusion.

Yes, but it is, what they have called, for the last couple of years, blood money cash.

[ChiTown]

I’m trying to catch up on all that’s happened and the conversation here is amazing. Here are my thoughts for what they’re worth

This “merger” isn’t about what’s best for golf, the players, or the fans. The Saudi PIF isn’t being benevolent. Some business types have run the numbers and decided that they will make a ton of $$$ on this investment. My guess is that “friends” of the PIF will start buying (or perhaps already own) golf courses that then just happen to get onto the tour schedule.

I’m also curious as to how this will impact the PGA in the broader sense and what may happen to the LPGA.

Looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts 

[jbishop15]

51 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yep. This is why I do not like binary choices in life. It isn't that easy. Some will say, just leave. If all you know is golf, and you are his age, WTF are you going to do? It's hard to re-invent yourself. 

It is easy to stand on the sideline and say, "Take the high road Rory!" We do not know his finances, his personal life, we are not him. It isn't like he has control of his thoughts, feelings, and instincts about this whole thing. If Rory decides to play golf, I will not fault him at all. He has to make a living. It is very hard to re-invent yourself and move onto a 2nd phase of your life. Ask Tiger Woods. The man should have retired after that car accident. He thinks he still has fuel in the tank and can make a comeback. 

By the looks of it, Rory dropped out of HS to pursue his golfing career. At the end, when he has to weight, if I quit golf what will I do versus continue to play. I think continue the play will win out. 

I'm not necessarily saying "take the high road" as much as I am saying "you said you were taking the high road and when that road got steep you changed your mind". I also understand that him changing his mind is a reasonable response to something that he cannot stop. I don't think that makes him above criticism, however. 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

I'm not necessarily saying "take the high road" as much as I am saying "you said you were taking the high road and when that road got steep you changed your mind". I also understand that him changing his mind is a reasonable response to something that he cannot stop. I don't think that makes him above criticism, however. 

No, you can criticize anyone. I doubt people who criticize him truly understand his situation, and in my opinion is probably unwarranted. 

[Elmer]

17 hours ago, chspeed said:

I know we're not supposed to talk politics in a vacuum, but this really relates to the PGAT.

If He Who Shall Not Be Named is in any way significant way involved in the PGAT, I personally will stop watching. For me, that's a bigger issue than Saudi blood money.

Both the British open and the PGA have turned their back on Voldemort.
I cannot imagine SA or PIL would involve this person in any significant way. 
This would be the opposite of growing the game as "He Who Shall Not Be Named" is only about self promotion and Self.

[TourSpoon]

17 hours ago, chspeed said:

If He Who Shall Not Be Named is in any way significant way involved in the PGAT, I personally will stop watching.

I seriously doubt this will be the case, however he did have a predictive tweet about this that was on the money (pun intended). But so did a lot of people that knew that money would win. 

 

16 hours ago, iacas said:

I do as well, but at the same time if you are Rory, what are your options? Retire? I mean, he could. But it’s basically retire, playing only the majors, or continue to play golf.

Rory really doesn't need to do anything different. Its all going to blow over once the golf starts and he can be a golfer again. Being the poster boy and now seemingly getting smacked in the face has to sting, but he will recover. 

 

41 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It is easy to stand on the sideline and say, "Take the high road Rory!" We do not know his finances, his personal life, we are not him. It isn't like he has control of his thoughts, feelings, and instincts about this whole thing. If Rory decides to play golf, I will not fault him at all. He has to make a living. It is very hard to re-invent yourself and move onto a 2nd phase of your life. Ask Tiger Woods. The man should have retired after that car accident. He thinks he still has fuel in the tank and can make a comeback. 

By the looks of it, Rory dropped out of HS to pursue his golfing career. At the end, when he has to weight, if I quit golf what will I do versus continue to play. I think continue the play will win out. 

He will keep playing imo. This doesn't reflect poorly on him, its on Monahan. Rory will have some awkward moments but he will get through them. 

What the sad part is that Monahan invoked the 911 families moral argument when this was always about money and power. I think they got caught off guard when LIV had some early success, had some star power, and then challenged them in court. BK contending and winning was an acceleration factor as it just drew more attention to the LIV debate. The settling was inevitable to not bleed money and to not disclose behind the scenes conversations that would come out. 

I really believe that LIV will morph somewhat as not always being the party 54 hole format. I think some of it will stay, but its got to involve some more mainstream events. Maybe they just fold it up and pack it away, I really don't know where it goes, but in the end the products will all have players that will potentially be paid more like mainstream athletes in other sports. 

And again, this is just my speculation and it will have zero impact on my ability to hit fairways at my club although it will make for some good barstool banter. 

[mdl]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

I do as well, but at the same time if you are Rory, what are your options? Retire? I mean, he could. But it’s basically retire, playing only the majors, or continue to play golf.

Team with Tiger to take all the non LIV players (assume they stay since they’ve shown they just follow the most guaranteed money) and start their own tour?

[DeadMan]

18 hours ago, chspeed said:

If He Who Shall Not Be Named is in any way significant way involved in the PGAT, I personally will stop watching. For me, that's a bigger issue than Saudi blood money.

Doing my best to leave politics out of this, but DT and the Saudis are very intertwined. His courses were hosting a bunch of LIV events. I expect that there will be PGA Tour event at DT-owned courses if this deal goes through. Also, if DT is elected President, the odds that the deal passes DOJ's antitrust scrutiny go up. In general, the Saudi government has been doing things that make it seem like they would rather have DT as President than other alternatives. So, unfortunately, I think politics and DT are part of background here.

Edited June 8, 2023 by DeadMan

[GolfLug]

50 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

I'm not necessarily saying "take the high road" as much as I am saying "you said you were taking the high road and when that road got steep you changed your mind". I also understand that him changing his mind is a reasonable response to something that he cannot stop. I don't think that makes him above criticism, however. 

I mean we can choose to not fill up our gas tanks, but for lack of options we do. When he had the option he took the high road and I applaud him for it as on face value he left money on the table back then too. But now if it is pro golf/no pro golf, it's a bit unreasonable to think he will walk away. I wouldn't.  

[snapfade]

[jbishop15]

12 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I mean we can choose to not fill up our gas tanks, but for lack of options we do. When he had the option he took the high road and I applaud him for it as on face value he left money on the table back then too. But now if it is pro golf/no pro golf, it's a bit unreasonable to think he will walk away. I wouldn't.  

I think a normal person without tremendous wealth filling up their gas tank is different than the stuff with Rory. I'm not saying he should walk away, either -- I'm not the person who positioned themselves as a bulwark against blood money and then shrugged my shoulders.

To be clear, I'm not asking for Rory to be castigated. I am just disappointed that a person who seemed to have the right idea about all this was either concerned about the wrong things (the future of pro golf) or is can't admit that he doesn't want to fight anymore. I think, more than anything, Rory is tired of being in the spotlight and taking all the arrows. It's clearly affecting him as a golfer. 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

His only real choices are to go along or retire.

I agree but his choice gets a little more involved.  One thing I am thinking is more like a normal business merger.  First, each PGA TOUR Pro is thier own "business" but has some resemblece of being and "Employee" of the PGA TOUR (I know they are not acutally employees)   Some made a business decision to take the risk to thier reputations & sponsorships to move to LIV while some chose to stay with the PGA TOUR and taking the risk of not getting that hugh payout.  Rory's risk (and others) was missing out on the payout and having PIF/LIV succeeed in the end.   Now we are seeing a "Merger" and some are saying the LIV players should be fined before letting them back on the PGA TOUR.  I doubt that will happen.  Thier "Employer" is part of the merger and I do not see that happening.  What I do see is similar to "Retention Packages" that other businesses offer employees to stop them from jumping ship during a merger.  The top PGA TOUR players that stayed will get a nice "Retention Package" and those down the line will get a lesser package and those at the bottom will get nothing.  It will be interesting to see what Tiger gets.  As much as we all want to see him compete week after week his body is not alowing that but having him algined with golf is valuable, even if he is not playing.

Of course, often these deals are under non-disclosure so we may never know facts.

The question for Rory is, does he "Accept" a retention package or does he walk.

 

[TourSpoon]

10 minutes ago, StuM said:

The question for Rory is, does he "Accept" a retention package or does he walk.

I don't see him walking away. 

There is another piece to the puzzle...the PGAT retirement package.  Did the LIV guys get wiped clean when they left? 

[guitarget]

I love this website.☺️

The other day I logged in my email, and had a torrent of notifications from TST.  Uh-oh, what happened?  My thanks to everyone here who have answered every single one of my questions about this very strange situation.👍👏

 

Don Ward

[StuM]

22 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

I don't see him walking away. 

There is another piece to the puzzle...the PGAT retirement package.  Did the LIV guys get wiped clean when they left? 

I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the retirement plan but my understanding is a portion of thier winnings get set aside.  This to me sounds like a "Deferred Compensation Plan" and typically those are 100% vested since the money was yours in the first place.  I do not see it as a "Pension" thay may have "Vesting" or other requirments.  My guess is they did not get wiped out.

[chspeed]

2 hours ago, mdl said:

Team with Tiger to take all the non LIV players (assume they stay since they’ve shown they just follow the most guaranteed money) and start their own tour?

While farfetched, this idea is not the craziest thing I've heard. They would need to convince many senior PGAT officials, a vast majority of PGAT players, big sponsors, and a massive group of investors. Most likely will never happen, but you never know!

[Rick Graham]

22 hours ago, Elmer said:

Not only is he a professional golfer, but a professional golfer who volunteered to do a TV interview.
If you are putting yourself in that position to be interviewed and asked about 9/11, jamal khashoggi and the money you took from the SA, you cant just say "hey I am just a golfer".

What kind of questions did he expect on a news network, questions about chipping out of a bunker?

And yes I would rather hear " I want to be filthy stinkin rich I don't give a crap where the money came from"

Instead of "I am sorry for the loss of those on 9/11, but SA is working real hard to bring us all together by growing the game of golf, but then again I am just a golfer so what do I know"

If what you say is true, everyone thst puts gas in their car or uses plastics are contributing to saudi blood money, these guys just want to play golf period, and they got offered alot of money to do so, i dont see a problem

[Vinsk]

23 minutes ago, Rick Graham said:

If what you say is true, everyone thst puts gas in their car or uses plastics are contributing to saudi blood money, these guys just want to play golf period, and they got offered alot of money to do so, i dont see a problem

FFS Rick…it’s been well covered how that’s not the same thing at all. In Global markets everyone has to do business with governments/institutions they aren’t fond of and even despise. It’s a matter of pure survival to have gas/plastics. That hardly compares to wealthy athletes taking a direct paycheck from said government/institution to simply make more money for their already extravagant lifestyles.