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iacas

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On 8/6/2021 at 3:04 PM, iacas said:

Seriously, yeah. Colleges have required kids to get vaccinations and other stuff done before they show up their freshman year. This isn't really different.

Kindergarten and High School often also require it.

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10 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

In about 2 months there're going to be a lot more vaccinated Americans.  And we will be better for it.  So will they...

I don't know; depends on how you define "a lot".  There is a lot of people opposed and will not get the vaccine.   Numerous people have their picture surrounded by "I stand for Medical Freedom.  #stop the mandate".  People are protesting it (even medical people such as nurses).  

 

I am a member of Mustard or Senning survivors (heart patient; Mustard surgery/Senning Surgery) and even some people in that group is opposed to the vaccine.  Comment from at least one "Do not be complacent.  Question all authority and make your own decision.  The worse reason to make a choice is for the greater good.  The onus of responsibility is on the individual for themselves.  Not anyone else.  Any other reason any person give you to get the vaccine is straight bullying.  This is supposed to be a free country".

Personally, I think that this vaccine should not be forced on people at this time.  It should be the persons choice.  It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this?  

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2 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Personally, I think that this vaccine should not be forced on people at this time.  It should be the persons choice.  It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this? 

The "bribes" are intended to encourage people to do something that will benefit society as a whole when, for selfish reasons, they'd choose not to do it.  I don't have a big problem with people making their own choices, as long as their choices don't impact me significantly.  So I have no problem when businesses cater to people who have made the "pro-society" choice, and don't allow those other folks onto their private property.  Make your decision, and accept the consequences.  If that means you can't go to a specific restaurant, attend a concert, fly on a commercial airline, remember that its YOUR choice that causes you to miss out.

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On 8/6/2021 at 12:04 PM, iacas said:

Seriously, yeah. Colleges have required kids to get vaccinations and other stuff done before they show up their freshman year. This isn't really different.

Every year since kids started preschool they have asked to see our updated vaccination information (when required - many years once they reached a certain age they stopped needing boosters as often)  Tetanus, MMR, and a couple others I don't remember the names of.

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15 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I don't know; depends on how you define "a lot".  There is a lot of people opposed and will not get the vaccine. 

It's just getting more and more difficult not to be vaccinated.  Colleges, Federal jobs, state-funded jobs, military, health care workers, sports teams, etc., etc.  We'll either have a lot more people vaccinated or have a lot more people unemployed.  

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14 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I don't know; depends on how you define "a lot".  There is a lot of people opposed and will not get the vaccine.   Numerous people have their picture surrounded by "I stand for Medical Freedom.  #stop the mandate".  People are protesting it (even medical people such as nurses).  

 

I am a member of Mustard or Senning survivors (heart patient; Mustard surgery/Senning Surgery) and even some people in that group is opposed to the vaccine.  Comment from at least one "Do not be complacent.  Question all authority and make your own decision.  The worse reason to make a choice is for the greater good.  The onus of responsibility is on the individual for themselves.  Not anyone else.  Any other reason any person give you to get the vaccine is straight bullying.  This is supposed to be a free country".

Personally, I think that this vaccine should not be forced on people at this time.  It should be the persons choice.  It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this?  

The number of times I've heard of nurses selling MLM products, especially those with a supposed health benefit, does make me wonder about some parts of the medical profession sometimes.  But then again, I also know I'm not about to hear about all the nurses who aren't selling these things.

As for that comment from someone in your group, I wonder if they realize that getting the vaccine has a great personal benefit too.  That was the big reason I wanted to get vaccinated when I had the chance.  The various bribes just add to the personal benefits for getting the vaccine.  Although I do slightly resent that I don't get a bribe because I got it done as soon as possible instead of dragging my feet.

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20 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

The worse reason to make a choice is for the greater good.  The onus of responsibility is on the individual for themselves.  Not anyone else.

Ignoring that fact that the vaccination has an obvious individual benefit, i.e., a vaccinated person is less likely to be infected with, spread (possibly to vulnerable friends and family), and possibly die from the coronavirus, this is a terribly short-sighted comment by your peer.  This sort of thinking is prolonging this pandemic unnecessarily, which only results in a worse outcome.

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28 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

 

Personally, I think that this vaccine should not be forced on people at this time.  It should be the persons choice.  It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this?  

I'm not trying to come down on you Matt, but I have to 90% disagree with you on the first two sentences.  I don't think we should mandate 100% at the federal/state level for vaccines.   We've never done it, and generally we've relied on the vast majority of people to follow advice.   However, those that don't get it can be limited in what they can do because they "choose" to not get it for whatever reason they want.   They can stay at home and not affect the rest of us.   I think it should be so strongly encouraged at the federal/state/school/corporate level that you really have to think about how you want to limit your life.

As for peoples' choice, I think there is a small, but very important, list of items where your own choice is less important.  When we had the draft, we lived under the threat of another land war due to the geopolitical state of the world.   You can't rely on a military that makes it their choice on whether they believe it's necessary, so there was selective service, if you are registered and called...you go.  

I work in IT and frequently deal with people who "did their research" and a lot of times they didn't have access to the right information so they wasted time, money and effort on the wrong thing instead of calling someone like me.   Likewise, I can't make informed decisions about medical questions for my family or figure out complex tax situations.   I need to call experts.   Yes, you can consult several people (and you should!), but ultimately I am not going to make some decision just because I had a "feeling" or my FB group agreed with me.   This whole situation with masks is completely turned around because you can't throw decisions about something complex on a large population group and expect people to do the right thing.  The state and local governments know how bad this virus can be.   Too many elected officials are bowing to pressure and throwing it on parents to "make the decision", like somehow most people will magically do the right thing.   

If people magically did the right thing, we wouldn't have laws.   It'd be a utopia.   Guess what, it's not.

As for your third sentence, we are trying to bribe people because they are either dumb, misinformed or clueless about the social contract that we all need to be a part of to get past this.   If it only affected people who didn't get vaccinated, I'd be mad about it.   As it is, we need to drag these people across the finish line to get back to normal.

—Adam

 

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43 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this? 

Do you understand how contagious diseases and viruses work?

46 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

Personally, I think that this vaccine should not be forced on people at this time. 

That’s fine, and people that don’t want to take the vaccine can stay home. Moreover, others also need not be forced to be around those that choose not to take the vaccine. That’s why so many institutions are taking action to require vaccinations. 

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45 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

I don't know; depends on how you define "a lot".  There is a lot of people opposed and will not get the vaccine.   Numerous people have their picture surrounded by "I stand for Medical Freedom.  #stop the mandate".  People are protesting it (even medical people such as nurses).  

Good news is, the wait and see crowd is getting smaller. The definitely not is under 15%. 85% vaccination would be really good to hit. 

Screen Shot 2021-08-10 at 12.32.44 PM.png

 

 

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1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

People are protesting it (even medical people such as nurses).

The number of "medical people" protesting is dwarfed — absolutely dwarfed — by the number that want nearly EVERYONE to get vaccinated when they can.

It's nice to argue a position when you basically just get to make shit up and use vague words like "even medical people" because it's true if you can find as few as two nurses.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

I am a member of Mustard or Senning survivors (heart patient; Mustard surgery/Senning Surgery) and even some people in that group is opposed to the vaccine.

This says nothing. We'll all stipulate to the fact that there are people out there "opposed to the vaccine."

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

Comment from at least one "Do not be complacent.  Question all authority and make your own decision.

This is some rich bullshit here, because it implies heavily that I and others like me DIDN'T do these things.

And that couldn't be farther from the truth.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

The worse reason to make a choice is for the greater good.

Ummmmm… yeah, no.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

The onus of responsibility is on the individual for themselves.  Not anyone else.

Yeah, also some rich bullshit. That's not how a society works.

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

Any other reason any person give you to get the vaccine is straight bullying.  This is supposed to be a free country".

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1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this?  

Because if stupid people can't make the right decision on their own, maybe bribing them will result in better good for the country as a whole.

You keep asking questions as if they're great mysteries. They're not.

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There is no mystery. People do not trust the media and Government. It is making rational people irrational. That is all I will add to this. 

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Society is about give and take. Freedoms come with responsibilities. One of them is to understand sacrifice in the face of a pandemic. All we are asking of people is to no be selfish, and to get a shot that is shown to have VERY high effectiveness with very little downside. This is one of the easiest sacrifices any country has asked of its citizens. Right now, 15% of people are bat shit crazy in that they would never get the vaccine. Either it be the absurdity they believe in vaccines lies, or the pure selfishness of just waiting it out because of herd immunity, all the while letting more people suffer for it. The remaining 15% have a chance to rectify their mistake by getting the vaccine once the FDA approves it through normal procedures. Right now, over 30% of this country has shown they do not have the back bone to make a small sacrifice. It honestly an embarrassment. 

1 hour ago, mattm16 said:

It does make a person wonder, why are they trying to bribe people into taking this?  

Because the world is run on incentives and restrictions. 

Businesses try to make the incentives such that you purchase that product. 

Businesses were wondering why people were not investing in 401k's. It's because the amount of information upfront to learn and to pick options was to much of a restriction for people. Then they did op-out plans, with automatic contributions to age based mutual funds, and participation went up greatly. There was no incentive to op-out, but the restriction was removed. 

I am 100% for putting pressure on people through incentives that make the equation going on in their head come out to a different scenario. 

If No Vaccine < Yes Vaccine + Money? Then throw some money at them. 

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17 minutes ago, iacas said:

The number of "medical people" protesting is dwarfed — absolutely dwarfed — by the number that want nearly EVERYONE to get vaccinated when they can.

It's nice to argue a position when you basically just get to make shit up and use vague words like "even medical people" because it's true if you can find as few as two nurses.

This says nothing. We'll all stipulate to the fact that there are people out there "opposed to the vaccine."

This is some rich bullshit here, because it implies heavily that I and others like me DIDN'T do these things.

And that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Ummmmm… yeah, no.

Yeah, also some rich bullshit. That's not how a society works.

Hilary Duff Laughing GIF by YoungerTV

Because if stupid people can't make the right decision on their own, maybe bribing them will result in better good for the country as a whole.

You keep asking questions as if they're great mysteries. They're not.

Dude.  Calm down.  I'm NOT making things up.  I see this on a daily basis.  I was quoting what other people have said.  There ARE people in the medical field that are saying no to the vaccine.  I know of people that will NOT get the vaccine.  There are valid questions.  Just because YOU don't find them valid, doesn't mean they are not. 

And, just because they do not want to take the vaccine, does not mean they are stupid.  People can (and will) disagree, but that does not give you the right to call them names.

  

8 minutes ago, jmanbooyaa said:

There is no mystery. People do not trust the media and Government. It is making rational people irrational. That is all I will add to this. 

Yes, that is the truth.  That I will agree with.

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7 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

There ARE people in the medical field that are saying no to the vaccine.  I know of people that will NOT get the vaccine.  There are valid questions.  Just because YOU don't find them valid, doesn't mean they are not. 

Post some valid questions then. 

7 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

And, just because they do not want to take the vaccine, does not mean they are stupid.  People can (and will) disagree, but that does not give you the right to call them names.

No, but they are making a stupid mistake. 

Smart people are not smart 100% of the time. Clearly this is one of those moments. 

"A good conversation is not designed to win the argument. It is designed to enjoy the exchange."

Matt "Dough", P.E.
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What's in My Bag
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35 minutes ago, mattm16 said:

And, just because they do not want to take the vaccine, does not mean they are stupid.  People can (and will) disagree, but that does not give you the right to call them names.

Does it give a business the right to decline to serve them, or decline to employ them, in order to make things safer for its employees and customers?  Does it give a school system to right put the safety of the mass of students above the "right" of the individual?  Will these people accept these types of restrictions as reasonable consequences of their own choices, or will they whine about their freedom being compromised?

Hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated people.  Cases are rising, in a large part because too many people remain unvaccinated.  So we end up with choices by governments, businesses, schools, to limit the freedom we should all have in order to limit the impact of these "personal freedom" actions by the vaccine-averse.   My ability to travel may be limited, I may be required to wear a mask when I'd prefer not to, THOSE people are creating the increase in illness that will effect all of us, vaccinated or not.  THOSE highly "intelligent" highly selfish assholes are causing MY freedom to be restricted.

Dave

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32 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Post some valid questions then. 

No, but they are making a stupid mistake. 

Smart people are not smart 100% of the time. Clearly this is one of those moments. 

Ok.  What is the long term effect of the vaccine?  In my case, why did the vaccine cause my head pain shot to stop working?  Quotes from people who are not getting it "Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to be threatened to take it for a disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it".  "If you have to carry a card in your pocket to gain access for merely shopping or freely moving about then that is no longer a free country....and that should concern everyone regardless of party" and "if you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized.....if all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest"

I know people who have not gotten it.  My parents for one.  Do I think they  are stupid?  No, I don't.

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