No. 1 HCP Hole On Your Home Course

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, billchao said:

 

You guys and your fish stories crack me up.

You’re overly humble....

[dagolfer18]

7 hours ago, David in FL said:

Two courses at my club, so I’ll post both #1 hcp holes.  Both demonstrate nicely that the #1 hcp hole need not be the “hardest” hole on the course, but rather, is the hole where the bogey golfer most needs a stroke from the scratch golfer.

 

#7 at Heathrow CC.  400 yd par-4.  Intimidating drive with water all the way down the left and OB right.  Any drive less than 230 yds will leave the need to carry 180ish to ensure you clear the pond that wraps around and fronts the green.  The fairway narrows between the two bunkers at about 250 yards.  Needless to say, either bunker presents a significant challenge for the approach with soft sand and another 150ish yards to carry.  I’ve seen more than a few single digit players make a double digit score on this one.

 A couple of years ago we played 27 holes one rainy, windy afternoon.  Playing the front 9 twice, I played this hole in a combined total of 5, count ‘em, cinco strokes!  It was so windy that I hit 3-wood in both times.  To 10 feet the first time, and holing it the second time.

Perhaps the highlight of my entire golf career.   

Birdie-eagle on that hole, into the wind?? That’s impressive!

[sjduffers]

Officially, it's on the front 9, #6, a 520 yds par 5, with a very steep hill right in front of the box, so you'd better get the ball really airborne or you won't make the top of the hill, then a right dogleg quite a ways down the fairway, which requires that the tee shot be placed in the left half of the fairway, but the left side is guarded by some tall trees from the top of the hill onward. The green is nothing special, no bunkers, just a bit of slope going in two directions (back to front and left to right). In my view, it's not a difficult hole, but it easily becomes a bogey hole for a slicer or someone failing to clear the top of the hill on the tee shot or hitting the trees on the left. I am not a long hitter by any means, but I once put my second 3 wood (also 3 wood from the tee) on the fringe. I had the wind behind me and those were too really good 3 woods. Most of the time I par this hole, with the occasional birdie when I wedge it close. 

In reality, the second handicap hole, #14, is the hardest, IMHO. It's a 400 yards uphill all the way, with a very sharp left dogleg up to a perched green (so it's doubly uphill). If you fade or slice, it obviously becomes a much longer second shot and it's made worse by the fairway sloping left to right severely which tends to make those balls curving right go further away from the green.  The green is severely sloped left to right and back to front and almost any position above the hole is a very difficult putt, and one that is not easy to keep close to the hole for a tap-in or short putt.

I think a fallacy is to think that the hardest hole is the #1 handicap: instead it's the hole where a bogey golfer might need a stroke the most, but there is also the consideration of front 9 vs back 9 and I think that the front 9 always have the odd handicap holes were the back 9 always have the even ones, so handicap #2 might actually be harder than #1...

Edited June 11, 2020 by sjduffers

[Vinsk]

45 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I think a fallacy is to think that the hardest hole is the #1 handicap:

The topic is the #1 hcp hole per rating. I don’t think anyone has said it’s the hardest hole right? 

[bwdial]

Sugar Hill Golf Club - Hole #4 - Par 4 - 402 / 366 / 302 / 295

Dogleg right, with a deep, heavily wooded area all along the right side, and water left off the tee.  The green is narrow, and angled from the fairway.  Last time I played it, from the white tees, I made a triple bogey after some poor course management. 

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, sjduffers said:

 

I think a fallacy is to think that the hardest hole is the #1 handicap: instead it's the hole where a bogey golfer might need a stroke the most, but there is also the consideration of front 9 vs back 9 and I think that the front 9 always have the odd handicap holes were the back 9 always have the even ones, so handicap #2 might actually be harder than #1...

I mentioned that in my post.

It’s also not true that the odd hcp number holes are always on the front.  While they most often are, they can be on the back...

[gbogey]

14 hours ago, sjduffers said:

I think a fallacy is to think that the hardest hole is the #1 handicap: instead it's the hole where a bogey golfer might need a stroke the most, but there is also the consideration of front 9 vs back 9 and I think that the front 9 always have the odd handicap holes were the back 9 always have the even ones, so handicap #2 might actually be harder than #1...

To be clear, it's the hole where a bogey golfer needs a stroke versus a scratch golfer.  A good example was my old home course in NJ.  The 3rd hole #1 handicap was 391 from my tees -  a scratch golfer with his 250 yard drive would have 141 into the green - probably a wedge.  A bogey golfer with his 200 yard drive would have 191 into the green - probably a FW to an elevated green with deep rough right and a hill left that ran into the woods.  The 7th hole #3 handicap (355 yards) was harder but it hard for everyone - regardless of whether your drive was 200 or 250, you had an awkward side hill lie into a diabolical green.

[pganapathy]

13 hours ago, Vinsk said:

The topic is the #1 hcp hole per rating. I don’t think anyone has said it’s the hardest hole right? 

In theory it is supposed to be.  Of course 1 and 2 will be on different 9's so it may well be that 2 is harder than 1 for some people.  The truth is how the hole is made difficult also affects how you view it.  Some holes are difficult by being long.  Others are difficult because you need to be accurate (OB, hazard etc).  Depending on your game, some holes might not be as difficult as others.  For example, on my home course, stroke index 1 is difficult because it requires a long second shot of approximately 175 to 200 yards (net as it is uphill) but more importantly the entire right side is OB.  The stroke index 2 hole is hard because it is a par 4 495 yards.  Unless you are long you are hitting fairway woods to even reach the green in two.  And it is an elevated green with quite a bit of slope in one half.  But the longer hitters find this easier because they are hitting mid lofted irons.  This hole doesn't demand as much accuracy because the only OB is beyond the green

[David in FL]

8 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

In theory it is supposed to be. 

No.  No it’s not.

It’s been said several times now.  The lowest hcp hole(s) is/are those where a bogey golfer most needs a stroke from a scratch golfer.

There are many instances where more difficult holes have higher hcp ratings because they play more equally difficult for players of all abilities.

[DaveP043]

 

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

No.  No it’s not.

It’s been said several times now.  The lowest hcp hole(s) is/are those where a bogey golfer most needs a stroke from a scratch golfer.

There are many instances where more difficult holes have higher hcp ratings because they play more equally difficult for players of all abilities.

This was true up until January this year, and probably will remain true until each course chooses to review its Stroke Allocations.  The recommended procedure in the USGA area used to be to base handicap numbering on the scoring difference between low handicap and high handicap players on each hole.  In the new WHS, the recommendation is to based the handicap numbering on the hole difficulty, as determined by the Course Rating process, as well as having the stroke allocations spread somewhat evenly through the entire golf course.  This is Appendix E in the Handicap Rules.

At my home course, Handicap #1 is the 15th hole, a par 5 of moderate length.  

The tee shot is slightly downhill, with OB tight on the left, and long grass well to the right.  The second can reach the green after a good drive, but it has to carry a large tree, and the pond which fronts the green.  A layup has to end up in fairway bordered on both sides by penalty area, leaving a third shot to the green over the pond.  The green is challenging, with a "shelf" in the back half, and a slight ridge dividing front right from front left.  Generally, this is a birdie hole for better players, but has real disaster potential for others.

This is NOT the most difficult hole, that would be #12.  390 yards, uphill about 70 feet (based on Google Earth), into the prevailing wind, so playing maybe 430?  

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

 

This was true up until January this year, and probably will remain true until each course chooses to review its Stroke Allocations.  The recommended procedure in the USGA area used to be to base handicap numbering on the scoring difference between low handicap and high handicap players on each hole.  In the new WHS, the recommendation is to based the handicap numbering on the hole difficulty, as determined by the Course Rating process, as well as having the stroke allocations spread somewhat evenly through the entire golf course.  This is Appendix E in the Handicap Rules.

At my home course, Handicap #1 is the 15th hole, a par 5 of moderate length.  

The tee shot is slightly downhill, with OB tight on the left, and long grass well to the right.  The second can reach the green after a good drive, but it has to carry a large tree, and the pond which fronts the green.  A layup has to end up in fairway bordered on both sides by penalty area, leaving a third shot to the green over the pond.  The green is challenging, with a "shelf" in the back half, and a slight ridge dividing front right from front left.  Generally, this is a birdie hole for better players, but has real disaster potential for others.

This is NOT the most difficult hole, that would be #12.  390 yards, uphill about 70 feet (based on Google Earth), into the prevailing wind, so playing maybe 430?  

12 is definitely the hardest hole on your course.  And you forgot to mention the crazy rock wall up the right side between the fairway and the OB and the damn tree that is short and right of the green (have they cut that old dying tree down yet?).   Man that hole is a pain for someone who draws the ball.  LOL 

At Springfield G&CC, the #1 HC hole is 15, which is a decent birdie opportunity for most good players.  Just a normal Par 5.  The bunkers left and the pond right are really the only trouble.

The hardest hole, is probably the 18 HC hole, the Par 3  Number 6.  It's 225 from the back tee and typically plays 190-195 from the blue tee, it's uphill and typically into a stiff breeze and I believe it's one of the largest greens on the course.  Not a lot of birdies and lots of bogeys or worse.  OB the entire right side, severe slope if you go left of the trap and a 3 putt is always lurking as the green slopes severly back to front for the first half of the green and then slopes front to back the last half of the green.

Edited June 12, 2020 by jsgolfer

[sjduffers]

On 6/11/2020 at 5:38 PM, Vinsk said:

On 6/11/2020 at 4:51 PM, sjduffers said:

I think a fallacy is to think that the hardest hole is the #1 handicap:

The topic is the #1 hcp hole per rating. I don’t think anyone has said it’s the hardest hole right? 

I didn't aim this comment at anyone. But it's a commonly held perception, isn't it?

On 6/11/2020 at 7:18 PM, David in FL said:

It’s also not true that the odd hcp number holes are always on the front.  While they most often are, they can be on the back...

True. But, It still means that a #2 stroke index hole could be more of an issue for a bogey golfer (or indeed for anyone as in my example) than a #1 stroke index, because all odd stroke indices are on one side and all the even ones are on the other side, and it isn't clear that the determination of odd/even stroke holes vs front/back is made solely on the #1 vs #2 holes: it most likely isn't. Maybe it's the total set of 9 holes that determine whether a side has the odd or even stroke holes? Perhaps @iacas can clarify that, as he is an experienced course rater?

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I didn't aim this comment at anyone. But it's a commonly held perception, isn't it?

True. But, It still means that a #2 stroke index hole could be more of an issue for a bogey golfer (or indeed for anyone as in my example) than a #1 stroke index, because all odd stroke indices are on one side and all the even ones are on the other side, and it isn't clear that the determination of odd/even stroke holes vs front/back is made solely on the #1 vs #2 holes: it most likely isn't. Maybe it's the total set of 9 holes that determine whether a side has the odd or even stroke holes? Perhaps @iacas can clarify that, as he is an experienced course rater?

Its definitely a common (mis)perception that the #1 handicap hole is the hardest.  I know I posted our #1 handicap hole, along with a description of the hardest.  And as I indicated, the new recommendations about Stroke Allocations will put "hard" ahead of most other considerations.

As for odds and evens, the recommendations say to putt the odds on the front, unless the back is significantly more difficult.  All of the Stroke Allocations are subject to the Committee's discretion, the USGA only provides recommendations.

 

[David in FL]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As for odds and evens, the recommendations say to putt the odds on the front, unless the back is significantly more difficult.  All of the Stroke Allocations are subject to the Committee's discretion, the USGA only provides recommendations.

 

^^^ This ^^^

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:49 AM, David in FL said:

Two courses at my club, so I’ll post both #1 hcp holes.  Both demonstrate nicely that the #1 hcp hole need not be the “hardest” hole on the course, but rather, is the hole where the bogey golfer most needs a stroke from the scratch golfer.

 

#7 at Heathrow CC.  400 yd par-4.  Intimidating drive with water all the way down the left and OB right.  Any drive less than 230 yds will leave the need to carry 180ish to ensure you clear the pond that wraps around and fronts the green.  The fairway narrows between the two bunkers at about 250 yards.  Needless to say, either bunker presents a significant challenge for the approach with soft sand and another 150ish yards to carry.  I’ve seen more than a few single digit players make a double digit score on this one.

 A couple of years ago we played 27 holes one rainy, windy afternoon.  Playing the front 9 twice, I played this hole in a combined total of 5, count ‘em, cinco strokes!  It was so windy that I hit 3-wood in both times.  To 10 feet the first time, and holing it the second time.

Perhaps the highlight of my entire golf career.   

 

Number 4 at The Legacy course.  525 ya par-5.  Even as a relatively short hitter, I consider it to be one of the easiest birdies on the course.  Another intimidating tee shot makes the higher hcp players struggle though.  It takes an accurate 230+ drive to carry the water and to keep from being blocked on the left for your 2d shot.  Following that there’s no real problem except for the green side bunkers and the large double tiered green with the lower tier in back.  

 

Neither hole is terribly difficult, but both tend to give the higher hcp player fits...

In our area, the local paper would run a "Hardest Holes in the Valley" poll! Number 13 at Mill Creek North would win the hardest 13th every year! It was a dogleg left, uphill, 445 yard par 4 (from the tips), that was squeezed on the left by huge oak trees, and on the right by two enormous fairway bunkers! 

[billchao]

17 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

In our area, the local paper would run a "Hardest Holes in the Valley" poll! Number 13 at Mill Creek North would win the hardest 13th every year! It was a dogleg left, uphill, 445 yard par 4 (from the tips), that was squeezed on the left by huge oak trees, and on the right by two enormous fairway bunkers! 

Is that your home course? What's your strategy?

[iacas]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:29 AM, DaveP043 said:

This was true up until January this year, and probably will remain true until each course chooses to review its Stroke Allocations.  The recommended procedure in the USGA area used to be to base handicap numbering on the scoring difference between low handicap and high handicap players on each hole.  In the new WHS, the recommendation is to based the handicap numbering on the hole difficulty, as determined by the Course Rating process, as well as having the stroke allocations spread somewhat evenly through the entire golf course.  This is Appendix E in the Handicap Rules.

It's still not necessarily going to be the "hardest holes".

Typically in course rating for example you'll see a par three with some expected scores from bogey and scratch golfers of 2.97 and 3.87, or 6.84 or 0.84 over par.

But on a par five, you'll see 4.76 and 6.32, or 11.08, or 1.08 over par.

But which hole was "more difficult" for the scratch golfer?

[DaveP043]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

It's still not necessarily going to be the "hardest holes".

Typically in course rating for example you'll see a par three with some expected scores from bogey and scratch golfers of 2.97 and 3.87, or 6.84 or 0.84 over par.

But on a par five, you'll see 4.76 and 6.32, or 11.08, or 1.08 over par.

But which hole was "more difficult" for the scratch golfer?

I knew I was simplifying when I mentioned "hole difficulty, as determined by the Course Rating process", so I went back and took a good look again.  They suggest using the sum of (Scratch Rating-Par) plus (Bogey Rating - Par).  Your numbers are (as expected) compiled that way.  The intent seems (to me at least) to be to use a measure of "difficulty"  that takes into account all golfers, not just the scratch golfer.