Are Green Speeds Too Fast?

[DeadMan]

I came across this interesting article and wanted to share. In short, the article says that green speeds are getting too fast, making courses play too hard and too slow:

http://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/global_golf_post/20210816/steinbreder_greenspeeds.html

I thought the article made some interesting points, but I mostly disagreed with it. I very rarely see greens playing too fast. Maybe once a year I see a pin placement combined with fast greens that is over the line. I also think that a lot of courses over state their green speeds. There aren't many that truly play PGA Tour fast every day, despite what courses will say. Maybe I'm not paying courses that are chasing speedy greens and causing stuff like that to happen. That said, if it saves the courses a lot of money to run the greens at an 8 instead of a 10, then it does feel like the courses need to save the money and not be obsessed with fast greens.

Thoughts?

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

very rarely see greens playing too fast. Maybe once a year I see a pin placement combined with fast greens that is over the line. I also think that a lot of courses over state their green speeds. There aren't many that truly play PGA Tour fast every day, despite what courses will say. Maybe I'm not paying courses that are chasing speedy greens and causing stuff like that to happen. That said, if it saves the courses a lot of money to run the greens at an 8 instead of a 10, then it does feel like the courses need to save the money and not be obsessed with fast greens.

Thoughts?

Most greens are at medium to medium slow speed. So probably 7-9-ish. Not many get to the 11+ range. 

I think it has more to do with slope than speed. 

 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

Most greens are at medium to medium slow speed. So probably 7-9-ish. Not many get to the 11+ range. 

I think it has more to do with slope than speed. 

It has to do with the combination of slope and speed, in my opinion.  But there's no question that agronomy and maintenance have allowed courses to keep greens much faster than they once were.  The thing is, you can change the speed of the greens, but you really can't decrease slopes.  So older courses with more dramatic slopes play just fine at one speed, but can be brutal when the greens are faster.  Portions of greens can become "un-pinnable", acceptable hole locations are eliminated, which increases wear and tear on the more level portions of greens.  My own home club has some severe slopes, and when greens are faster, like for tournaments, it can be impossible.  Yet some players are always complaining that the greens are too slow.  

 

[mcanadiens]

The golf world in general has tended to equate hard with good.  Since there are only so many things you can do with the course itself, the greens are what gets the focus.

Just like the article says it isn't just fancy courses either. My home course is the sort of place that has always been a pretty easy and open course. It's biggest challenge is its heavily undulated greens. Our new pro has made a point of both speeding them up and favoring some very difficult pin placements. To boot, he has grown patches of "natural area" in spots that were wide open rough previously.   Obviously, our guy doesn't want anyone talking about our course being easy. 

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather things be easier, but I think I'm in the minority.

[StuM]

I've only see an occasional round where I felt the greens were too fast.  I did golf a round a couple weeks back were I felt they were too fast, especially considering the undulation on several greens.  Still I finished with 37 putts including 3 1-putts and unfortunately 4 3-Putts. A couple of the 3-putts were fast downhill putts that just could not stop anywhere close to the hole so it was frustrating to just tap the ball and still end up 10 feet past the hole.  Still, came out with one of my better overall rounds.

There is a tipping point but overall I prefer faster greens since they seem to roll more true for me and I feel I putt better on them than on slow greens.  

[Shindig]

I'm not sure I'm a good enough putter to notice the difference between an 8 and a 10.  As long as the greens are reasonably similar in speed, I'll be happy.

What I really need is pin positions that we can putt to.  We get that most of the time, but there are occasions where I see a pin position and I wonder if the person who placed it has ever played golf.

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

The golf world in general has tended to equate hard with good.

Faster greens aren’t “harder.”

They’re more difficult to maintain not to play.

[mcanadiens]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Faster greens aren’t “harder.”

I'll be sure to remember that the next time the putt I barely tapped rolls down the the green and back into the fairway.

 

[imsys0042]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Faster greens aren’t “harder.”

They’re more difficult to maintain not to play.

What if they have a lot of slope + fast greens?    Where I play now, they do some tournaments at 14+, and they have a lot of slope.   My prior place limited the speed of the greens because they said that with the amount of undulation and slope, that it became too unfair given how the greens were.  

Both courses had a lot of areas that you could not place a pin, based on what the pro and greenskeeper decided.   And a lot of placements really penalized you if you were in the wrong position, like 180-270 degrees around the hole.   However my current place has a lot more pin placements that people absolutely complain about and hate.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by imsys0042

[GolfLug]

In my book 14+ greens are outright silly........ at ANY level. That's not a hard course, just a hard set up. 

That said, our course now consistently runs between 10 and 11. Pro says faster greens give a perception of quality and care. I am starting to like that range. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by GolfLug

[Shindig]

35 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

I'll be sure to remember that the next time the putt I barely tapped rolls down the the green and back into the fairway.

 

I have missed a putt long by 45 yards (yards, not feet) on a municipal green that I doubt was running faster than 10.  However, it was hit a little harder than a tap.

[Club Rat]

I can not really speak for Bermuda Greens as they are not grown in our area.
But playing mostly in the Missouri area, greens will very at different courses.
I'm sure most courses have a good handle on maintaining them under any 
conditions the hot summer and high humidity. While some courses have 
problems every year with the grasses they have on their course, they still 
have a set budget for the annual maintenance. 

Pace of play is routinely good, bad and ugly, regardless of green speeds, IMO.
Most comments and remarks golfers will make after a round about greens, is generally describing the condition on that day, whether they were slow, fast or unique pin positions.

Most courses I play have generally good greens, while once in awhile I have come across
a day where I'm like, they are poor, shaggy, slow, and even dead in areas, etc.

I'm not finding any situations around our area where increased speed conditions on 
a regular basis are possible greater than 11 on the stimp. Even with massive slope
and undulations at some courses, most golfers are not distressed over any given round
about difficulty of the greens.

I do find greens vary in speed from time to time, being quick or slllloooowwww.
I doubt it had anything due to costs involved that day as a consideration.
The courses I play regularly have similar and consistent speeds day to day.

I recently played in a Member/ Guest at the Colorado Golf Club which I saw several
balls roll past pins a long way and off greens due to speed of the greens. They were indicating the green speeds were around 12. My friend had indicated they play these
speeds all the time. And the greens were very firm which lead to areas on them not holding good shots. Over the five days of play, I did not hear one whimper about the greens or pin positions. It was an exciting week of golf and I only wish someday to be able to move to an area which and play on these style of greens on a daily basis. 

Oh by the way, Colorado Golf Club was designed by Coore and Crenshaw and I'm not sure I truly understand his comments concerning "the speed of the greens has gotten out of hand" with many of of the great courses they are designing?

IMO, the golf industry is enjoying a large financial boom across the board.
The cost to maintain a course should not be any issues regardless of the cost for green 
speeds as a factor. Any good Greenskeeper would likely agree.
    

 

 

[StuM]

52 minutes ago, Shindig said:

I have missed a putt long by 45 yards (yards, not feet) on a municipal green that I doubt was running faster than 10.  However, it was hit a little harder than a tap.

That sounds like a fairly large green to start with, unless the 45 yards included going off the green and down into the fairway.

[NM Golf]

Personally I love fast greens. Yes they can be difficult to some, especially on greens with a lot of slope, but I would rather have that than the glacially slow greens I play on week in and week out. Slow greens have they're own issues like having to hit putts so hard that you really lose any feel. The harder I have to hit a putt I think the better chance there is for me to miss hit it or start it off line.

Fastest greens I've ever played on were at Pinehurst no. 2. We were told for our tournament they had them running about a 12. After putting my first two attempts completely off the green I actually putted extremely well. I think its easier to start the ball on line.

As far as the article is concerned I just disagree. As a golfer I don't want to play super slow greens, I don't believe it would be good for golf to slow things down that much. Sure, we probably don't need greens running 13+ for the general public, but greens like they talk about running 6 or 7 are really slow. Greens running a 9 or 10 are super playable and enjoyable.

[mdl]

IMO the faster the better. I love being able to hit smooth and easy even from distance. And I don't mind the risk of running balls way past or off false fronts or whatever. Just gives an extra challenge.

It probably is confounded though with the fact that because of the trend the article notes better kept courses also are generally trying to be at least medium speed, if not fast. So there's a lot of correlation between Stimp speed and the greens being in good shape and running true.

[Yukari]

I hate slow greens.  I have a hard time trying to hit it hard enough to get it to the hole.

I prefer faster greens preferably in the speed range of 10-12.

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

That sounds like a fairly large green to start with, unless the 45 yards included going off the green and down into the fairway.

Yeah, it was hole 10 at Hansen Dam, which at some times in history has been hole 1 at the course.  This hole is ~300 yards, with the last 100 yards being quite uphill (I can take a picture next time I'm there).  The pin was up front, but I hit the back of the green (on purpose, as approach shots hit short of the green tend to do what happened to Phil at the '08 Open on hole 13 on Saturday).  The rest of my group hit short and theirs came back to them.  But I was quite a bad putter at this time, as opposed to now where I'm merely a bad putter, and I ran my first putt past the pin ... and off the green ... and had a 45 yard pitch shot for my fourth.  

[boogielicious]

Most greens I play are between 9-11 in the summer. Early spring they tend to be slower around here. I don’t mind fast greens at all. I just want them to be consistent throughout the course. I’ve played 12 before and once I got used to them, it was fine.