Ball flight laws and misinformation

[Zeph]

Of course they know that a real ball is spinning.

Here's an excerpt from a PDF on the project:

Quote:

Related to a spinning golf ball, we had a success for 5m/s ball speed. With ongoing high speed and
spinning simulations, the obtained detailed information will make it possible to design dimples,
which enable a ball flying farther.

Oh, and as far as I can tell, the simulation seems to be from 2008.

I don't know the scope of the project, but computer limitations may be a reason why the video is of a ball without spin. And while a spinning ball surely changes the air flow, they can learn something from looking at a ball that's not spinning.

[Lihu]

Of course they know that a real ball is spinning. Here's an excerpt from a PDF on the project: Oh, and as far as I can tell, the simulation seems to be from 2008. I don't know the scope of the project, but computer limitations may be a reason why the video is of a ball without spin. And while a spinning ball surely changes the air flow, they can learn something from looking at a ball that's not spinning.

After seeing this, i've been looking for more recent simulations. My guess is that this snippet cost a lot to produce. Turbulent flow of a compressible fluid (Air) is really difficult to simulate. I guess this is a good start, but not a complete model yet. Takes time to do, and most graduate students want to work on something to get their Phds rather than do pure research. Golf ball companies probably use wind tunnels and a lot of dead reckoning. . .

[iacas]

Something clearly outside the scope of this short, informational video.

Says you. I say it limits the "informative" to leave it out. Wasn't even mentioned was it? I'm sure they know a ball spins. But it wasn't demonstrated in the video. Ball manufacturers have been doing this kind of research for decades. It's a million- or billion-dollar industry.

[saevel25]

Ball manufacturers have been doing this kind of research for decades. It's a million- or billion-dollar industry.

I remember seeing a video on how the golf companies can test theoretical designs with a computer program that can simulate any material properties they want to plug in. I am sure they have something that can simulate ball spin. That has been a key component of golf ball design over the past 15 years.

[Ernest Jones]

Jesus Lord Thunderin' ****!!!

It's almost 2015 and I just got spammed with a Michael Breed video about how to fix your slice...with the old ball flight laws. Why are these guys being so God damn obtuse.

Freakin' guy is advocating a stronger grip (which is fine) and a slightly closed clubface at address...

I left a comment but it's being held for moderation...I won't hold my breath.

[iacas]

Jesus Lord Thunderin' ****!!!

It's almost 2015 and I just got spammed with a Michael Breed video about how to fix your slice...with the old ball flight laws. Why are these guys being so God damn obtuse.

Freakin' guy is advocating a stronger grip (which is fine) and a slightly closed clubface at address...

I left a comment but it's being held for moderation...I won't hold my breath.

Well, to be fair, both of those things are going to reduce the tendency to slice… Are they not, Jason?

They're just more "quick tip" style than I'd prefer, but… many golfers only want quick tips.

[Ernest Jones]

Well, to be fair, both of those things are going to reduce the tendency to slice… Are they not, Jason?

They're just more "quick tip" style than I'd prefer, but… many golfers only want quick tips.

I agree that both those things can help by minimizing the differential between path and face, but he could have easily framed those exact same tips in a way that didn't propagate misinformation and that's where I take issue.

He could have said, "here's a quick tip to help keep you in the fairway, but ultimately you'll need to do this..." Then the golfer can make an educated decision as to whether he's happy with the McTip that minimizes the damage or if he want's to delve deeper and fix the root problem. Seems win-win too because the golfer that wants to go deeper will, presumably, be a long term client.

[daa1969]

Ya ball flight laws was a dead end! Anyway, im not buying into that theory, it only makes sense that the ball will start on the path you swing and the face will determine its flight, if you close your face and swing in to out, you will draw /hook the ball, if the face is square to the path it will be a push, if its open it will be a push fade/ slice, same goes for opposite

[jbishop15]

Ya ball flight laws was a dead end! Anyway, im not buying into that theory, it only makes sense that the ball will start on the path you swing and the face will determine its flight, if you close your face and swing in to out, you will draw /hook the ball, if the face is square to the path it will be a push, if its open it will be a push fade/ slice, same goes for opposite

Please don't start this in JB's thread. If you really want to have a discussion further on the ball flight laws, I would suggest moving it over there, or finding a thread that is similar, or start a new one.

[iacas]

Ya ball flight laws was a dead end! Anyway, im not buying into that theory, it only makes sense that the ball will start on the path you swing and the face will determine its flight, if you close your face and swing in to out, you will draw /hook the ball, if the face is square to the path it will be a push, if its open it will be a push fade/ slice, same goes for opposite

@daa1969 I moved these two posts over here.

The correct, accurate ball flight laws are:

The ball starts generally where the face is pointing and curves away from the path.

The relationship of the face to the path determines the curve. If they match, it's straight (could be a pull or a push or whatever, but it's straight). If the face is closed to the path, it's going to curve in a draw or hook fashion. Vice versa for fade/slice.

But the ball starts much closer to the face than the path. With a driver it's around 90%, and with a 9I it is about 70% toward the face. The path is only responsible for about 10-30% of the starting direction of the ball.

So if 0° is directly at the target, and + is right and - is left, and we're talking about a righty:

- Face +5°, Path -2° = Ball pushes and fades/slices.

- Face -1°, Path -8° = Ball pulls slightly (not a lot) and fades/slices.

- Face -1°, Path +8° = Ball starts very close to straight, draws/hooks left of the target from there.

These aren't opinions. They're facts. Let's get on board with them and move on, because nobody here misses the days where people don't understand this type of thing.

P.S. All of this assumes centered contact.

[billchao]

it only makes sense that the ball will start on the path you swing

Only if you don't understand physics. For a lot of people I've talked to, the old ballflight "laws" made no sense.

[mdl]

These aren't opinions. They're facts. Let's get on board with them and move on, because nobody here misses the days where people don't understand this type of thing.

P.S. All of this assumes centered contact.

No one?  The only threads that edge toward anger or at least umbrage taking these days are political ones where you sensibly never chime in.  We need more threads with a simple golf/physics fact being disputed where we get grumpy Erik smackdowns!

On a more serious note, I'm sure these have been covered here somewhere at some point, but I can't find it and don't remember.  What are the effects of off center contact on ball flight (generally, I assume there will be some differences between the effects with different club heads, and maybe shafts and swing speeds)?  I'm thinking in terms of a few examples you gave above giving the ball flight effects of different face and path angles.  What happens if you throw in a relatively extreme non-shank heel strike, or a strike well out towards the toe, but still fully on the club face, not a squibber off the toe edge of the face?

I'd be interested in the physics/mechanics of the effects too.  The ones behind the center-strike ball flights make total sense to me, but I feel like I've heard that a toe strike will encourage more of a draw than a center strike with the same face and path angles, but I don't get physically why that would be true (or if I'm wrong why that would encourage more of a fade).

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

These aren't opinions. They're facts. Let's get on board with them and move on, because nobody here misses the days where people don't understand this type of thing.

P.S. All of this assumes centered contact.

No one?  The only threads that edge toward anger or at least umbrage taking these days are political ones where you sensibly never chime in.  We need more threads with a simple golf/physics fact being disputed where we get grumpy Erik smackdowns!

On a more serious note, I'm sure these have been covered here somewhere at some point, but I can't find it and don't remember.  What are the effects of off center contact on ball flight (generally, I assume there will be some differences between the effects with different club heads, and maybe shafts and swing speeds)?  I'm thinking in terms of a few examples you gave above giving the ball flight effects of different face and path angles.  What happens if you throw in a relatively extreme non-shank heel strike, or a strike well out towards the toe, but still fully on the club face, not a squibber off the toe edge of the face?

I'd be interested in the physics/mechanics of the effects too.  The ones behind the center-strike ball flights make total sense to me, but I feel like I've heard that a toe strike will encourage more of a draw than a center strike with the same face and path angles, but I don't get physically why that would be true (or if I'm wrong why that would encourage more of a fade).

I kind of miss these as well......

[Missouri Swede]

What are the effects of off center contact on ball flight (generally, I assume there will be some differences between the effects with different club heads, and maybe shafts and swing speeds)?  I'm thinking in terms of a few examples you gave above giving the ball flight effects of different face and path angles.  What happens if you throw in a relatively extreme non-shank heel strike, or a strike well out towards the toe, but still fully on the club face, not a squibber off the toe edge of the face?

I'd be interested in the physics/mechanics of the effects too.  The ones behind the center-strike ball flights make total sense to me, but I feel like I've heard that a toe strike will encourage more of a draw than a center strike with the same face and path angles, but I don't get physically why that would be true (or if I'm wrong why that would encourage more of a fade).

Try this thread: Gear Effect Pop Quiz

[daa1969]

Funny, ive never seen anyone hit a fade by swinging right, and never seen a draw from swinging out to in, isnt the worlds biggest golf affliction the big slice? Starting left and curving way right, according to these new theories how could that even be romotely possible?

[daa1969]

Why do we hear that more and more pros are swinging left these days to avoid the hook/push?

[saevel25]

Funny, ive never seen anyone hit a fade by swinging right, and never seen a draw from swinging out to in, isnt the worlds biggest golf affliction the big slice? Starting left and curving way right, according to these new theories how could that even be romotely possible?

I did it yesterday. ;) Majority of the time a golfer will slice because the swing path is something like 10 degrees from outside to in with a face angle like -1 degrees closed. Face is hugely open to the path, ball slices right.

[mvmac]

Funny, ive never seen anyone hit a fade by swinging right, and never seen a draw from swinging out to in, isnt the worlds biggest golf affliction the big slice? Starting left and curving way right, according to these new theories how could that even be romotely possible?

Again, these aren't "new theories", it's just the way it is.

The ball starts left because the face is pointed left of the target, most slicers are casting which points the face left at impact with the path being further left.

never seen a draw from swinging out to in,

Players that hit pull draws do this. They aim their body well right and swing across their body.

Because if you swing too far out (which can be a fault of good player), swinging left (properly) can help the golfer swing less out.