Anyone else tired of hearing the PGA and USGA talk about pace of play?

[johnclayton1982]

I'm sick of hearing about it because I don't think its justified for two reasons.  First, there is no set time for "slow" or "fast".  Second, I think its unreasonable to both expect to play at the speed you want AND the time you want.

First, if the course posts a time a round should be completed inside, and its known before you pay, then fine.  No problem, the expectations are clear.  But what is "fast" ?  I've played a round in less than 4 hours before and had people asking to play through and getting frustrated, etc... I've played 5 hour rounds where everyone seems content.  If there is no standard, its impossible to complain.  Considering almost everyone defines slow play as "play that holds me up", NOBODY ever thinks they are slow.  They always think they are normal / fast, and everyone else is slow.  Until we have an objective standard posted at the first tee at most clubs (i.e. "A round on this course should take 4 hours").

Second, you can't get everything you want.  I play 4 1/2 - 5 hours on Saturday mornings.  I can play as fast as I want when I play at 3 pm on Tuesday.  You don't get both.  You want to play fast?  Great, play at 1 on Tuesday.  You want to play on Saturday morning, when its most convenient for your schedule?  Tough, you're going to be slow, because that's when everyone wants to play.  It seems to me like you are choosing to drive at rush hour when you don't have to, then complaining about traffic.

I think without an objective standard the whole discussion is silly.  Further, I think its greedy to want to play BOTH when you want AND at the pace you want.

[cfritchie]

I think without an objective standard the whole discussion is silly.

I think there is a "known" standard...ask the courses what the expectations are, 4 hours with a max of 4.5 is the standard. Does that mean on a Tuesday at 3:00pm you shouldn't complain if that one foursome of old guys won't let you play through and they are on a 4 hour pace? No, you should complain. No different then doing the speed limit in the fast lane...I can't stand the jerk who takes the stance that "I'm doing the speed limit so I ain't moving over." No difference on the golf course and the freeway...show some respect, watch ahead AND BEHIND, move over when there is room to let someone by. If it is bumper to bumper and you are keeping up with the flow and there is no place for you to go....then sit back and enjoy the ride....

[johnclayton1982]

So obviously, according to your theory, if the course is packed and everyone is keeping up and the round takes 5 and a 1/2 hours, that isn't slow?

Most people you would ask out on the course during a round like that would disagree with you.

There is no agreed standard put out by the PGA or the USGA, relating back to the point of the thread.  The USGA says "play faster" to which most players say "Yeah, EVERYONE ELSE needs to play faster, your right".  Whereas if the USGA said "play your round in 4 hours" some people might say "Oh, I'm slow then."

The point is that by advocating "faster play" the USGA and PGA accomplish zero because there is no standard.  Everyone hears that and thinks "Yeah, everyone else needs to speed up".  I am suggesting it would be much more effective of an ad campaign if those bodies used a standard of some kind rather than general, generic, relative advice that everyone hears, nods, and agrees everyone else is the problem.

We're talking about adding 15-inch holes and other incredibly dramatic remedies from these bodies without those bodies coming out and saying "X hours is fast, Y hours is slow".  That seems silly to me.

[dsc123]

There is no agreed standard put out by the PGA or the USGA, relating back to the point of the thread.  The USGA says "play faster" to which most players say "Yeah, EVERYONE ELSE needs to play faster, your right".  Whereas if the USGA said "play your round in 4 hours" some people might say "Oh, I'm slow then."

The point is that by advocating "faster play" the USGA and PGA accomplish zero because there is no standard.  Everyone hears that and thinks "Yeah, everyone else needs to speed up".  I am suggesting it would be much more effective of an ad campaign if those bodies used a standard of some kind rather than general, generic, relative advice that everyone hears, nods, and agrees everyone else is the problem.

I agree with this completely.

[dennyjones]

Pace of play is still a very serious issue.   Last Saturday I played a course in mid-Michigan and was joined with a threesome.   There was a scrambles tournament in front of us and I figured it would be a little slow.  After 5 hours, we walked off after 16.   The threesome in front of us decided to each putt each missed putt three or four times.     I won't be back to that course.

Does slow play affect participation?   Absolutely.   I'll vote with my dollars.

[M2R]

There are objective standards for pace of play (or could be). Unveiled in 1993, the USGA Pace Rating System is a service for golf courses that seek to identify how long it should take four golfers to play the course on a busy day.

For most courses, the USGA Pace Rating has turned out to be just under four hours. Tougher and longer courses may rate over four hours. Participating regional golf associations are using the USGA Pace Rating software program to calculate time pars for their member clubs. To have your course pace rated, call your regional golf association.

One of the more interesting findings was that the playing pace for a group of four in golf carts with the freedom to roam the fairways is no faster than for golfers walking with caddies or carrying their own bags (except at a course with long walks between greens and tees). Restricting carts to cart paths adds 13 percent to time pars. Allow carts on fairways and the pace of play matches that of walking golfers.

[dsc123]

There are objective standards for pace of play (or could be). [URL=http://www.usga.org/MicroSiteContent.aspx?id=21474855473]Unveiled in 1993, the USGA Pace Rating System is a service for golf courses that seek to identify how long it should take four golfers to play the course on a busy day.[/URL] [URL=http://www.usga.org/MicroSiteContent.aspx?id=21474855491]For most courses, the USGA Pace Rating has turned out to be just under four hours. Tougher and longer courses may rate over four hours. Participating regional golf associations are using the USGA Pace Rating software program to calculate time pars for their member clubs. To have your course pace rated, call your regional golf association.[/URL] [URL=http://www.usga.org/MicroSiteContent.aspx?id=21474855472]One of the more interesting findings was that the playing pace for a group of four in golf carts with the freedom to roam the fairways is no faster than for golfers walking with caddies or carrying their own bags (except at a course with long walks between greens and tees).[/URL] [URL=http://www.usga.org/MicroSiteContent.aspx?id=21474855491]Restricting carts to cart paths adds 13 percent to time pars. Allow carts on fairways and the pace of play matches that of walking golfers.[/URL]

Good find. They should emphasize that instead of "while we are young" or playing the right tee.

[joekelly]

Played 4 days ago, teed off at 10.30. Posted completion time given at 4 hrs 20 mins.  After 3 holes we were 6 mins behind the clock and the marshall told us to hurry along.  After 6 holes we were 9 mins behind and now the marshall told us to either hurry more, or skip a hole.  We hurried more.  Once the final group of the day teed off, about 4.5 hrs before sunset, the pace slowed down a bit.  We finished in 4 hrs 40 mins and no doubt the final group finished before dark.

This MO can only work under current monopoly and where the course has total control over players rights but all of this does keep many players happy. .

[PA Golf Info]

Yes I am sick of it.  I will pay more for a course that has more time between groups.  Glen Mills out side of Philadelphia has 12 min tee times.  I love that it helps a lot as most courses around me are 7 min.

[David in FL]

Played 4 days ago, teed off at 10.30. Posted completion time given at 4 hrs 20 mins.  After 3 holes we were 6 mins behind the clock and the marshall told us to hurry along.  After 6 holes we were 9 mins behind and now the marshall told us to either hurry more, or skip a hole.  We hurried more.  Once the final group of the day teed off, about 4.5 hrs before sunset, the pace slowed down a bit.  We finished in 4 hrs 40 mins and no doubt the final group finished before dark.

This MO can only work under current monopoly and where the course has total control over players rights but all of this does keep many players happy. .

There's the problem.

While I commend the course you played with what sounds like aggressive enforcement of their pace of play standards, the fact that they consider 4:20 acceptable in the first place is ridiculous, and contributes to the problem.

I won't even comment on a group that plays in 4:40 while being asked repeatedly to "hurry more".......

[boogielicious]

No, they do not.  Last fall I was playing by myself and joined a two-some (man and woman) that I had caught up with.  The woman talked incessantly.  We walked down the fairway: she talked.  We found my ball: she talked.  I chose my club and took a stance: she continued to talk.  I backed off, took some practice swings:  she talked. I took my stance again: she continued to talk.  I finally just took my shot and then said, "we need to speed up, there are people waiting on us"  She said, "we'll just let them play through."  I replied, "well, I'm trying to get through 18 holes today so I'm just going to pick up and move to the next hole. nice to have met you both."

We had a guy in my golf league like this.  Never stopped talking disrupting everyone else.  Funny thing is HE thought he was a fast golfer.  I did my best to avoid being in his group.

[RayG]

Played 4 days ago, teed off at 10.30. Posted completion time given at 4 hrs 20 mins.  After 3 holes we were 6 mins behind the clock and the marshall told us to hurry along.  After 6 holes we were 9 mins behind and now the marshall told us to either hurry more, or skip a hole.  We hurried more.  Once the final group of the day teed off, about 4.5 hrs before sunset, the pace slowed down a bit.  We finished in 4 hrs 40 mins and no doubt the final group finished before dark. This MO can only work under current monopoly and where the course has total control over players rights but all of this does keep many players happy. .

Were YOU guys the ones slowing it down? Or were you 'keeping up"? If you were keeping up, then the Marshall is doing it wrong. He should be on the group that is dawdling. If you're keeping up, there's no point in telling you guys to "hurry up more". He should just tell you: "Hey guys, there's a group that a little behind that's a couple of groups ahead of you. I told them to pick it up so try to keep up if they do, okay? Thanks" and then on down the line behind you.

[ghalfaire]

I'm not tired of hearing about it because it still remains a problem. I WISH I was tired of hearing about it because more was being done to actually improve pace of play.

I wish the PGA Tour did something, but they're member operated.

Well I like this answer too, must be your day iacas.  The LPGA has less of a problem with pace of play because they enforce the slow play rule.  Players (most notably Morgan Pressel) have lost tournaments because of slow play penalties on the LPGA.  Anyone know of any player on the PGA ever penalized because of slow play?   Who ever runs the PGA ought to read about Pavlov's dogs, then they might figure out why no player on the PGA tour cares about slow play.  To "encourage" specific behavior you need both a carrot and a stick, the PGA apparently has neither.

[RayG]

Well I like this answer too, must be your day iacas.  The LPGA has less of a problem with pace of play because they enforce the slow play rule.  Players (most notably Morgan Pressel) have lost tournaments because of slow play penalties on the LPGA.  Anyone know of any player on the PGA ever penalized because of slow play?   Who ever runs the PGA ought to read about Pavlov's dogs, then they might figure out why no player on the PGA tour cares about slow play.  To "encourage" specific behavior you need both a carrot and a stick, the PGA apparently has neither.

Yeah, that Amateur a few tournaments ago, right? And the only reason they picked on him was, one: he WAS sloooow.... and two: he couldn't complain about losing money because of it. Do it for a Keegan, or Nah or whatever and watch the fur fly...

[imsys0042]

Reading a reply from a little higher...this is one of my all time favorites.   I was playing at Great Gorge in Northern NJ and someone there must have been psycho (in a good way) about pace.

They had what they called "Pacesetter tees" which were tee markers well ahead of the ladies tees and if you couldn't keep up, you were to use them until you did.

Well, I was playing with one other person and it wasn't busy.   The ranger came by on the 6th hole (he looked like Wilfred Brimley, thought he was going to sell us oatmeal to keep us regular).   He asked us how we were doing, we said fine.   He asked us if we could play a little faster.   There was a slow group on 8, but since there was no one behind them directly (we were on 6), he wasn't justified in yelling at them.

Yes, his quote was "Can you speed up a little bit, so I can yell at them?"

Funny.

[turtleback]

If recreational golfers feel they can play slow because pros do they need a reality check. For all practical purposes they aren't playing the same game. If for no other reason is hundreds of thousands aren't being won and lost. I see the PGA Tour pace problems and PGA pace campaign as different things with different needs. IMO the pro spending 2 minutes trying to decide which wedge to use in hopes of sticking it close and the weekend golfers kicking through weeds on the way to a triple call for different solutions.

But we see this silliness all the time.  How often has someone posted that they take a free drop on lots balls because the guys on tour don;t lose balls because of the spectators.  Or that guy who was claiming that everyone should play preferred lies the way they do (according to him) in South Florida since the course we play are not as immaculately manicured as the ones the pros play.

[RoyJeeBiv]

the two biggest problems i've noticed that cause traffic jams on courses:

1) slow players who are oblivious to faster players behind them;

and,

2) players who think they are long hitters, but aren't (or, aren't consistent enough to warrant waiting on others).

maybe we need to post signs on the course as a friendly reminder... like on the interstate, you see:

...it seems laughable to post signs encouraging slower players to allow faster groups to play through, but sadly it (somehow) isn't obvious to many casual players who hit the course.

and nothing irritates me more than Joe Schmoe who thinks he can drive it 300+, so he frequently waits on each tee until the group in front of him is onto the next hole, only to duff it just past the women's tee.  one group like this can create a pile-up very quickly.  (they need to come up with a more PC way of saying, "your d*ck isn't as big as you think it is"... i think they'd get somewhere with that marketing package.  /pun)

EDIT: posted before i meant to... i suppose the best way around this is to stress pace of play for the course , not the individual .  do what's best for everyone on the course... let a group play through, tee off with a FW or hybrid or 5i instead of your driver, et al.  proper etiquette and course management, but don't be snobbish or hoity-toity about it.

[Shindig]

Yeah, that Amateur a few tournaments ago, right? And the only reason they picked on him was, one: he WAS sloooow.... and two: he couldn't complain about losing money because of it. Do it for a Keegan, or Nah or whatever and watch the fur fly...

Who is Nah? Never heard of someone named Nah (first or last name), but he keeps getting mentioned in this thread. I think a starting piece is to allow a playing partner (on TOUR; not in every day groups, that'll just slow it down more) to just jump ahead. Oh, you're taking forever and aren't ready to hit your approach and the green's clear? I'll hit mine and start walking (while staying out of the way). Once you hit yours, I'll get to the green and putt. Meet you on the next tee. I think it's been nearly a decade since anyone on TOUR did this.