Staying below the hole - Brilliant or Bogus?

[Natural Patrick]

3 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Just because PGA Tour players do it, doesn't mean it is right. A lot of PGA Tour player's heads are filled with crap information because they've been fed these incorrect anecdotes all their lives. 

Yep. I think PGA tour players hit a lot of their putts too hard as well. I can just picture Phil having that 4 footer coming back for par ;) 

A lot of PGA Tour player's heads are filled with crap information because they have been fed these incorrect anecdotes all their lives?  Yet they are playing on the PGA Tour. What kind of good information have you applied all your life  that got you on the PGA Tour? 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

A lot of PGA Tour player's heads are filled with crap information because they have been fed these incorrect anecdotes all their lives?  Yet they are playing on the PGA Tour. What kind of good information have you applied all your life  that got you on the PGA Tour? 

That has nothing to do with them being on the PGA Tour. Its the long game that separates Tour players from non Tour players. Rory can lose 3 strokes to the field in putting and still be in the top 10 because he gained 12 strokes on the field long game. 

We are talking about insignificant differences between uphill and downhill putts. Yes, it's inaccurate anecdotal information. 

[Natural Patrick]

14 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That has nothing to do with them being on the PGA Tour. Its the long game that separates Tour players from non Tour players. Rory can lose 3 strokes to the field in putting and still be in the top 10 because he gained 12 strokes on the field long game. 

We are talking about insignificant differences between uphill and downhill putts. Yes, it's inaccurate anecdotal information. 

It's all good, So I see how your opinion separates you from the Tour players. There really is no right or wrong opinion on this.

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

A lot of PGA Tour player's heads are filled with crap information because they have been fed these incorrect anecdotes all their lives?  Yet they are playing on the PGA Tour. What kind of good information have you applied all your life  that got you on the PGA Tour? 

False pretense.

You can get bad information - and repeat it - and still reach high levels of sport. Happens all the time.

[Natural Patrick]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

False pretense.

You can get bad information - and repeat it - and still reach high levels of sport. Happens all the time.

True, I just wish I could get enough bad information to get my index down to a 7.

[bm85]

59 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

True, I just wish I could get enough bad information to get my index down to a 7.

All you gotta do really is keep your head down, and aim right at the pin.

[natureboy]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

On super steep slopes it matters. On 95% of the greens players face, it doesn't matter much.

I definitely hear it as part of commentary for more than 95% of holes.

[Golfingdad]

27 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I definitely hear it as part of commentary for more than 95% of holes.

I think you meant to say 5% ... And you're right.  The announcerstotally overemphasize it. They do that with a lot of things.  Another similar example is how bad it is to short side yourself.  It is a mistake sometimes, but not nearly as often as the announcers would have you believe.

But those guys make their living on hyperbole.  I've mentioned this elsewhere recently but how many times do you hear them say something like "this shot is nearly impossible and he'll be lucky to keep it on the green" and then it's followed up by a pitch shot that stops 5 feet from the hole and the announcer has to try and explain how that is one of the best shots they've ever seen?  Never mind that it happens nearly every week. ;)

[Buckeyebowman]

8 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Gonna disagree on this one.  Uphill putts are easier to leave close to the hole and, therefore, not three putt as often, but there is no real reason why they'd be easier to read, and they definitely aren't easier to make, IMO.

Consider this:  If you have a same length straight uphill versus straight downhill putt, and your goal is to hit it hard enough to go the same distance past the hole if you miss (whether that is 9" or 18"), then the uphill putt is going to be passing the hole at a higher rate of speed than the downhill putt.  Based on that alone, you have a smaller effective hole size (due to "capture speed") which means your chances of making it are, if anything, less.

I'm not sure I agree with this either. You've specified one particular instance, straight uphill and straight downhill, and attempted to make it blanket statement. It depends on the course and the greens you're playing.

Let's say we take Dave Pelz's rule of thumb that a perfectly struck putt, if it misses, finishes 17" past the hole. I've been on some greens where, if I'm putting from below the hole, and I miss, there's no damn way I want the ball ending up 17" above the hole!

I've been on greens that were freaky, scary fast! I've been just above the hole where all I have to do is touch the ball and it will get there. But, if I do that, it will go sideways off the putter face straight down the fall line! And end up 2' to 3' below the hole again. Or, if I stroke the putt hard enough to actually get it on line, but misread or mishit the putt just slightly, I could wind up 10' to12' away!

This is part of what separates the pros from the amateurs. When I'm playing a course with greens that are fast and have a lot of slope, if the hole is cut in a particularly difficult place, I have no problem knocking a putt up the hill to 6 inches below and tapping in for a two putt, no matter what score it gives me.

I've seen too many guys get bold on greens they could not handle, and blow themselves out of holes. Didn't we see Ernie Els 6 jack it at Doral?

[ZappyAd]

I would think that a pro is going to try to leave themselves with a putt they like so part of what the commentator is saying is true.  It might not always be an uphill putt though - will depend on lots of factors and changes from hole to hole and pin placement to pin placement.  If the commentator is saying the same thing on every hole then I guess that would be dumb, but I bet there are holes where if you polled the pros playing on a particular day they would all say they would prefer to putt from spot X which is below the hole.

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree with this either. You've specified one particular instance, straight uphill and straight downhill, and attempted to make it blanket statement. It depends on the course and the greens you're playing.

Let's say we take Dave Pelz's rule of thumb that a perfectly struck putt, if it misses, finishes 17" past the hole. I've been on some greens where, if I'm putting from below the hole, and I miss, there's no damn way I want the ball ending up 17" above the hole!

I've been on greens that were freaky, scary fast! I've been just above the hole where all I have to do is touch the ball and it will get there. But, if I do that, it will go sideways off the putter face straight down the fall line! And end up 2' to 3' below the hole again. Or, if I stroke the putt hard enough to actually get it on line, but misread or mishit the putt just slightly, I could wind up 10' to12' away!

This is part of what separates the pros from the amateurs. When I'm playing a course with greens that are fast and have a lot of slope, if the hole is cut in a particularly difficult place, I have no problem knocking a putt up the hill to 6 inches below and tapping in for a two putt, no matter what score it gives me.

I've seen too many guys get bold on greens they could not handle, and blow themselves out of holes. Didn't we see Ernie Els 6 jack it at Doral?

It was the Masters on the first hole in a nearly level spot. He 'jacked' it because he didn't aim correctly. It had nothing to do with slope.

I've played on fast greens and once I got used to the speed after a couple of holes, I adjusted. In some respects, you can be more accurate on your start line with fast greens because your backstroke length is shorter. All things being equal, I would rather be closer to the hole for my putt. Up or down or side hill doesn't matter that much unless there is a steep ridge to deal with.

[Golfingdad]

7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree with this either. You've specified one particular instance, straight uphill and straight downhill, and attempted to make it blanket statement. It depends on the course and the greens you're playing.

Let's say we take Dave Pelz's rule of thumb that a perfectly struck putt, if it misses, finishes 17" past the hole. I've been on some greens where, if I'm putting from below the hole, and I miss, there's no damn way I want the ball ending up 17" above the hole!

I've been on greens that were freaky, scary fast! I've been just above the hole where all I have to do is touch the ball and it will get there. But, if I do that, it will go sideways off the putter face straight down the fall line! And end up 2' to 3' below the hole again. Or, if I stroke the putt hard enough to actually get it on line, but misread or mishit the putt just slightly, I could wind up 10' to12' away!

This is part of what separates the pros from the amateurs. When I'm playing a course with greens that are fast and have a lot of slope, if the hole is cut in a particularly difficult place, I have no problem knocking a putt up the hill to 6 inches below and tapping in for a two putt, no matter what score it gives me.

I've seen too many guys get bold on greens they could not handle, and blow themselves out of holes. Didn't we see Ernie Els 6 jack it at Doral?

Same questions n to you as Grinde ... How does this disagree with what I said?  I was quite clear, twice now, in simply saying that it's easier to leave it close and two putt from below than from above, but it's not any easier to read or make a putt from below than above.

I see nothing in your post that disputes that.

[Gunther]

If the distance is similar, I'll take an up hill putt over a down hill all day, every day but I would take a 5' down hiller over a 10' up hiller every time.  So, I voted #1.  Distance is the more critical factor to me.  

Plus, I don't always know from the fairway where the slopes are, unless there's an obvious ridge, in which case, I'm trying to get the ball on the same level of the hole thus eliminating an up or down hill putt.  Usually I'm aiming for the flag to get the ball as close as possible (unless it's 5 feet from a hazard or something.)

Edited May 17, 2016 by Gunther

[chspeed]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

False pretense.

You can get bad information - and repeat it - and still reach high levels of sport. Happens all the time.

+1.

Happens in other fields too!

[Missouri Swede]

10 hours ago, bm85 said:

All you gotta do really is keep your head down, and aim right at the pin.

No, you gotta say "take dead aim."  If we leave out the "dead" part, we aren't part of the cool guys club, 'cause that's what the announcers say. 

[Jeremie Boop]

I'd rather have an uphill putt, just because I struggle a bit with speed control sometimes. It's possible they say that just because you can be more aggressive with uphill putts because they are more forgiving when it comes to the length of the second putt if you miss.

[onthehunt526]

It's a little of both... In truth it depends. Most of the time you would want a putt you can be reasonably aggresive with. That's the brilliant part. When you get closer to the hole, I don't think it matters the bogus part... To be honest, I would rather have a downhill lag putt than an uphill lag putt... I feel on let's say a 30 ft uphill putt... I have to smash it... Where a downhill putt I feel more comfortable because gravity is helping me and if I'm 1 degree off line it'll finish closer to the hole than an uphill putt hit off line.

[DaveP043]

First I voted for other, and then I read all the posts.  In my opinion, most PGA pros will have similar results from above or below the hole, in most non-severe situations.  There are certainly combinations of slope and speed that make being on one side of the hole preferable, and those situations are among the things they're looking for when they play their practice rounds.  The "leaving the ball below the hole" is simply an old adage that many people trust.  Interestingly, I do remember Johnny Miller talking about easy downhill putts, and just letting the ball feed into the hole.  Apparently he's not concerned about a "normal" downhiller.

Although our personal preferences aren't a part of the original poll, I believe that I perform OK from above the hole most times.  Adjusting to green speed and moderate slopes is part of playing golf, something everyone needs to learn.  Again,  there are definitely spots where its best to be below the hole, and at least a few spots on my home course where you're better off chipping from one side as compared to putting from the other side.