Golf club thief picked the wrong mark - gets held at gunpoint

[Elmer]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Let's think this through...say you pull your gun on the guy, with no intention of actually shooting.  Well, what happens when he has a gun of his own? I mean, we already know he's a criminal, so who's to say he's not armed? Is it really worth it over golf clubs? Either taking a life or losing your own?

 

2 minutes ago, BamaWade said:

Yep.  This is a sensitive topic in our world for sure, where debate doesn't always accomplish much.  As gentlemen with the common interest in golf, here, we need to de-escalate this situation perhaps by describing the go-to golf shot we could taken down a criminal with.

I would let the dude get about 25 yards left and 50 long of me, then ripped my snap hook and taken him down with a Titleist (or Srixon...either's fine).  I have that shot in my bag any time of day.

BamaWade

What happens when a good guy with a gun, mistakes the other good guy with a guy for just another bad guy with a guy?
Does it become a mexican stand off?

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I see little chance this thread survives the afternoon without being locked.

golly - you're really good a multi-quoting

[WUTiger]

On 8/17/2016 at 2:13 PM, Abu3baid said:

I wonder how it turned out when the cops got there?  Wouldn't they get him to get on the ground and put the gun down ect?  Or where they high fiving him for his effort?  I'm surprised no one video taped that.

This next-day story from the Tulsa World, the Golf Thief, better describes what went on. The cops give a summary of the arrest wrap-up, and  The original story attached to the VIDEO was a bit garbled.

From the World story and VIDEO story, the cast of characters:

• Leland Ashley: police spokesman
• Donald Acree: aggrieved golfer with pistol
• Devon Montgomery: alleged thief who had Acree's golf bag
• Man in red shirt: almost bought contested golf bag.

According to the World, Montgomery was later arrested for grand larceny for ending up with Acree's golf bag, clubs and other things. Golf stuff valued at $3,800.

Tulsa police said a video at LaFortune GC shows a man later identified as Montgomery take Acree's bag from the clubhouse porch.

Police suggest that Acree was visiting local golf shops trying to find his stolen clubs, and happened upon Montgomery.

Acree is a retired fire marshal, and under OK law is a sworn law enforcement officer and licensed to carry a firearm.

Montgomery has threatened to sue Acree for assorted things. If the investigation bears out, he's a sneak thief that got more than he bargained for. That he was found trying to sell Acree's stolen golf bag does not bode well for  him.

On 8/17/2016 at 1:23 PM, DaveP043 said:

 Even Oklahoma doesn't count as the wild west anymore, there's no room for vigilante justice.

Agreed, as the video shows the man in the red shirt and a third man urging Acree to calm down, and Montgomery to lie down.

But, Oklahoma is a place where a sneak thief would be unlikely to get sympathy from a jury because his feathers got ruffled.  I spent about 10 years total in OK, and I think Montgomery is done for, legally.

Officer Ashley declined judgment on who was good and bad pending further investigation. Nonetheless, he did summarize a course of action for citizens curtailing a non-violent crime which was much less aggressive than Acree's.

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

This next-day story from the Tulsa World, the Golf Thief, better describes what went on. The cops give a summary of the arrest wrap-up, and  The original story attached to the VIDEO was a bit garbled.

From the World story and VIDEO story, the cast of characters:

• Leland Ashley: police spokesman
• Donald Acree: aggrieved golfer with pistol
• Devon Montgomery: alleged thief who had Acree's golf bag
• Man in red shirt: almost bought contested golf bag.

According to the World, Montgomery was later arrested for grand larceny for ending up with Acree's golf bag, clubs and other things. Golf stuff valued at $3,800.

Tulsa police said a video at LaFortune GC shows a man later identified as Montgomery take Acree's bag from the clubhouse porch.

Police suggest that Acree was visiting local golf shops trying to find his stolen clubs, and happened upon Montgomery.

Acree is a retired fire marshal, and under OK law is a sworn law enforcement officer and licensed to carry a firearm.

Montgomery has threatened to sue Acree for assorted things. If the investigation bears out, he's a sneak thief that got more than he bargained for. That he was found trying to sell Acree's stolen golf bag does not bode well for  him.

Agreed, as the video shows the man in the red shirt and a third man urging Acree to calm down, and Montgomery to lie down.

But, Oklahoma is a place where a sneak thief would be unlikely to get sympathy from a jury because his feathers got ruffled. 

Officer Ashley declined judgment on who was good and bad pending further investigation. Nonetheless, he did summarize a course of action for citizens witnessing a non-violent crime which was much less aggressive.

Score 1 for the good guys.  

[Strandly]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Uhhmmm? Crazy talk.

I was being mostly facetious when I suggested shooting the guy and claiming he was going for a weapon.  Watch the video though, the thief continues to walk away from the guy pointing a gun at him; that's how emboldened the criminals in this country have become.  If a petty criminal would do this what do you think an actual lunatic would do?

I see the cops running around on the news in military looking gear and screaming at people and it looks ridiculous and excessive (and it probably is) but I at least understand why they do it.  I wouldn't begrudge the old man for doing what he did to get control of the situation in the video above but I agree his behavior after the thief was on the ground was completely uncalled for.  I simply think when you have fearless criminals running around you have a serious problem.

[Aflighter]

Sadly in todays world the bad guy seems to wind up trying to act like they have been violated instead of taking responsibility for their actions.If the guy doesnt steal the mans clubs then none of this happens. I agree that he shouldnt have pointed gun at man because  if he had hammer back it couldve accidently went off.Hopefully the fear of death will make the kid rethink if theft is worth dying over.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

To be fair, this could happen any time someone see's another person with their gun out.

Ummmm, DUH!!!

19 minutes ago, Strandly said:

Watch the video though, the thief continues to walk away from the guy pointing a gun at him; that's how emboldened the criminals in this country have become.

On what planet is walking away with your hands up even "emboldened" adjacent?

[Strandly]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Ummmm, DUH!!!

On what planet is walking away with your hands up even "emboldened" adjacent?

Guy has a gun in your face and is telling you to do X thing and you repeatedly refuse to do X thing and you don't think that's the least bit insane?  No, this kid obviously thought there's no way he would be harmed or that the law has no teeth to punish him for his crime or that if he played his cards right he could come out of this as a millionaire via lawsuit.  He was obviously fearless or crazy, so which is it?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Strandly

[Dave2512]

Probably shocked that some old dude is threatening to kill him over stolen clubs.  That's like an eye for an eyelash.

[mcanadiens]

11 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Probably shocked that some old dude is threatening to kill him over stolen clubs.  That's like an eye for an eyelash.

Nope. Theft is punishable by cutting off a hand or a foot.

[Strandly]

8 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Nope. Theft is punishable by cutting off a hand or a foot.

Go for the foot, can probably still golf with a prosthetic foot. 

[Hardspoon]

13 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Nope. Theft is punishable by cutting off a hand or a foot.

Conspiracy theory: Chubbs wasn't actually attacked by an alligator; he just stole some golf clubs in Central Ohio.

 

[mcanadiens]

26 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Conspiracy theory: Chubbs wasn't actually attacked by an alligator; he just stole some golf clubs in Central Ohio.

 

Well ... Probably not Central Ohio. I did read once that Dearborn, MI was under Sharia Law. You know how the do things in that state up north.

[Joe92385]

I thought I was on the CalGuns forum for a minute there... At least here in CA (even in the most "red" county in CA, where one can actually get a CCW), there's no way I'd draw in that situation unless there was some physical altercation we didn't see.  

Can't remember all the points I intended to respond to now, and I don't have the multi-quoting skills of @iacas, but from what I do remember: (1) don't ever fire a warning shot, despite what Joe Biden said; (2) there's a lot of semi-legal talk, but state laws vary widely on reasonable use of force; and (3) not particularly relevant, but I hope that guy wasn't carrying off-body in his golf bag, but since his shirt is still tucked in the only other alternative would be open carry, and I didn't see a holster.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Strandly said:

Guy has a gun in your face and is telling you to do X thing and you repeatedly refuse to do X thing and you don't think that's the least bit insane?  No, this kid obviously thought there's no way he would be harmed or that the law has no teeth to punish him for his crime or that if he played his cards right he could come out of this as a millionaire via lawsuit.  He was obviously fearless or crazy, so which is it?

Uhhm, walking away with your hands up is in no way the same as "emboldened."

[Aguirre]

16 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Um, no. It states that treason, etc. are defined as forcible felonies. If you hold a member of congress at gunpoint, you are committing a forcible felony. So think twice before you book your trip to DC! 

I'd say every member of congress is guilty of committing forcible felonies. That's the point. Don't get all pedantic on me.

[stealthhwk]

I wish like heck everyone would stop screaming "oh, poor bad guy!". Being soft on bad guys gets u a world I dont want to live in. Unfortunately, mr retired fire marshal over reacted which will fuel plenty of the anti gun crowd. He had every right imho to defend his property and to do so by presenting a firearm. He did not have the right to use vicious death threats or kick the jerk square in the head even tho imo, he deserved it. If you are going to carry a firearm you must bear in mind that with great power comes great responsibility. He let his emotions get the best of him and thats a dangerous thing when your armed. The thief likely encouraged this by not obeying the guy with the gun. Quick lesson for everyone out there, the guy with the gun barking orders at u is likely serious. Follow directions and pray you are not shot. That goes for good guys and bad...guy with gun has the trump card people...common sense. I have a concealed carry permit and I have my own rules for use as well as the legal ones required by my state. In the event of unattended theft, odds are Im going to get a license plate and hope the law catches u. Steal it from me directly and for all I know you could kill me after I hand it over...a risk Im not likely to take. Come at me or my family or an innocent in my presence in a dangerously aggressive manner and I would not hesitate to defend by any and all means necessary.

[DrvFrShow]

If the man (with the gun) had called the police and told them about the golf clubs with the license plate of the vehicle, the police would have done nothing. It also takes the police about 7 minutes to respond unless there's a car in the area. For the police to take action he would have to:

1) prove in court that the defendant had his clubs

2) that the clubs were his

3) get a court order to retrieve his clubs from the defendant.

In the meantime, Montgomery gets rid of them through a fence.

He didn't use deadly force. He did not fire the weapon. He drew the weapon. He threatened to use deadly force in the process of making an arrest, apparently having reasonable cause for believing the person committed the alleged felony.

I don't believe he used excessive force. What choice did he have? Acree was arresting him and using the force needed to do so, not threatening to kill him. Montgomery would have otherwise ignored him and driven off.  Let's get that straight. He didn't shoot. If he shot, that would have been a different story. Acree did not kick Montgomery in the head with his cleats.

A citizen can also use a gun in performing a citizen's arrest if that is reasonable force necessary to get the alleged felon to comply until the police arrive. Although as a citizen I try to avoid places where I could be in danger.

Oklahoma is also an open carry state, but I don't see a holster. WA is also open carry. Looks like he's using a pocket carry like a Glock 43. It has that squat topline typical of Glocks.