Jason Day Spits at Pace of Play, Vows to Slow Down

[Marty2019]

33 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The players are currently subject to fines, based on the number of times they're put on the clock, yet Jason Day says he'll play as slow as he pleases.  Based on the prize money available, I don't think fines matter to the stars.  If they believe they play better, and win more, by playing slow, they'll gladly donate $50k out of a $1.5 million check. On the other hand, fines will really hurt a fringe player, whose $10 k check for 63rd place could be cut in half by a $5k fine.  I read a suggestion that fines be publicized, rather than assessed secretly, in an effort to exert public opinion against the players (and their sponsors, who may have more influence on individual players).  

I believe the only way to force a change in behavior is to assess strokes, whenever and wherever the infraction occurs.  Its only by affecting the outcome that we'd see the slow players speed up.  And the "cost" of that stroke penalty is somewhat proportional to the player's standing in the event, so its not excessively punitive on the guy who just barely made the cut.

 

Could the slow player be forced to wear a hat shaped like a turtle's shell??

I understand what you're saying, but 10 years from now, I don't want to be saying, so and so would have had a great career, but he lost the Masters when he took 10 seconds too long over a shot.  That's too great a penalty to me. 

Personally, it wouldn't ruin a tournament for me if a guy took too long over a shot.  What would ruin a tournament for me is if a guy lost the tournament because of a rule like this.   I'm thinking of DJ in the US Open last year, for example.   What if they assessed a penalty but the player had the right to appeal?   Are we going to see video tape of players with a clock superimposed and arguments among the announcers over whether he deserved the penalty or not?  

 

[Missouri Swede]

45 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

I understand what you're saying, but 10 years from now, I don't want to be saying, so and so would have had a great career, but he lost the Masters when he took 10 seconds too long over a shot.  That's too great a penalty to me. 

It wouldn't be because he took 10 seconds too long over a single shot.  It's a patten of behavior that would lead to a penalty.  Warnings are given when they are out of position and put "on the clock" (thank you, Rolex, the official timekeeper of the USGA and the PGA tour).

That 10 second delay might be the final action that leads to a penalty, but not the first (or only) action.  It wouldn't be a surprise to the player, and he would have had opportunity to make up the difference.

And if it's a known condition of competition, then all of the players are subject to the same standard.

[Hacker James]

Although I agree with the sentiments on attitude e.t.c. "Be that as it may, I like Jason Day"

[SavvySwede]

20 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

It wouldn't be because he took 10 seconds too long over a single shot.  It's a patten of behavior that would lead to a penalty.  Warnings are given when they are out of position and put "on the clock" (thank you, Rolex, the official timekeeper of the USGA and the PGA tour).

That 10 second delay might be the final action that leads to a penalty, but not the first (or only) action.  It wouldn't be a surprise to the player, and he would have had opportunity to make up the difference.

And if it's a known condition of competition, then all of the players are subject to the same standard.

Exactly, you don't see NBA players complain they lost the game because the shot clock ran out. They understand it is a part of the game.

[natureboy]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

FWIW, I don't take them the same way. I can understand where Rory's coming from: time he spends just "growing the game" is time he's not spending growing HIS game (or spending time with his sponsors, or his friends, or whatever). That kinda makes sense and he can still "grow the game" by playing well and not being a douche - by being someone that kids can admire and respect and so on. So that's fine, and I don't really care about Rory's comment.

Jason Day's commit is a slap in the face to the PGA Tour, and what's sad is that they're just going to let him do it. One of the game's better and most influential, marketable player has basically told the PGA Tour "I'm bigger than you." He's flipping them the bird, spitting in their face, and saying "they can fine me a few times, or put me on the clock. They're not going to actually punish me. I'll take as long as I freaking want. I'm saying it now, and I'm gonna do it, and they're not going to do a damn thing about it."

It's sad. It's disrespectful. It's soured me on Jason Day.

I agree with your first paragraph, and the implication of Day's comments as far as the second. But in my view you're reading into it extensively and ascribing a lot of nasty personal attitude/motivations to Day without much direct evidence for it.

I think it's more likely that he's just determined to do what he can to be more deliberate within the existing rules system. I think his statement did actually include a qualifier like 'while being considerate of playing partners'. I totally agree it's not exemplary, but the system they have is what it is and was voted for by players. Until they elect to go with more aggressive and/or fair enforcement or straight up stroke penalties for early violations, they won't start to touch the average field time.

10 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

So if it were up to me, I would say, don't charge them strokes.   Just assess fines and give the money to charity.  Make the fine go up with each offense until on the 5th or 6th offense, the fine is great enough to hurt.   Start off with a $5,000 fine, and go up to $50,000 or something.   And definitely, don't assess the fine in the middle of the round.  Wait until the round is over, and then assess the fines.   Remember what happened to DJ in the US Open last year?  I don't want to muck up the tournaments by assessing penalties in the middle of rounds. 

What I would do is try to change the behavior without affecting outcomes of tournaments. 

I'd agree with this approach if the fine was assessed as a percentage of their winnings for the year (or previous year). Otherwise the top players get a bye and their the ones who are most visible as 'examples' to the golfing public.

 

To some extent the 'being on the clock' makes me think of a pitcher having to pitch from the set/stretch vs a full wind-up. It's just a skill / adjustment intrinsic to the game. Even amateurs should have to do it if the group ahead of them picks up speed in order to maintain the position 'behind the group in front'.

Edited January 7, 2017 by natureboy

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I agree with your first paragraph, and the implication of Day's comments as far as the second. But in my view you're reading into it extensively and ascribing a lot of nasty personal attitude/motivations to Day without much direct evidence for it.

Okay.

I don't think he's being nasty about it. I just think he's selfish and dense and tone deaf in a small way, and I think the PGA Tour is also being dense and tone deaf too. Because they won't do a damn thing about it.

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I think it's more likely that he's just determined to do what he can to be more deliberate within the existing rules system.

He's already run afoul of the timing rules, but because he didn't run afoul of them too many times (whatever number that is), he still has room to get even slower and still be "okay" in his opinion. Because he knows the PGA Tour won't do jack shit.

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I think his statement did actually include a qualifier like 'while being considerate of playing partners'.

It's gonna take a lot for some world #183 to say "You know, Jason, you're a slow player." So he's never gonna know if people think he's slow. He already thinks he's not slow. He's already not considerate of playing partners. Or fans.

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I totally agree it's not exemplary, but the system they have is what it is and was voted for by players.

Like the players are going to vote to penalize themselves.

Players shouldn't get to vote on pace of play policies.

[natureboy]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Okay.

I don't think he's being nasty about it. I just think he's selfish and dense and tone deaf in a small way, and I think the PGA Tour is also being dense and tone deaf too. Because they won't do a damn thing about it.

He's already run afoul of the timing rules, but because he didn't run afoul of them too many times (whatever number that is), he still has room to get even slower and still be "okay" in his opinion. Because he knows the PGA Tour won't do jack shit.

It's gonna take a lot for some world #183 to say "You know, Jason, you're a slow player." So he's never gonna know if people think he's slow. He already thinks he's not slow. He's already not considerate of playing partners. Or fans.

Like the players are going to vote to penalize themselves.

Players shouldn't get to vote on pace of play policies.

Good points. I agree enforcement looks very lax.

Players might vote to increase the penalties if there were enough guys like Haas who found the slow pace disturbed their preferred rhythm. Heck I would put money on a statistical study of slow vs. fast for the same player on average outcomes. I bet many players develop an illusion of control that they hit better when they take more time.

Ultimately it will affect their image as a brand and as a sponsorable athlete so in the long run it's in all their interests. Making a hard, unpopular call like that is kinda what they hire a 'commissioner' for.

[Golfingdad]

6 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Exactly, you don't see NBA players complain they lost the game because the shot clock ran out. They understand it is a part of the game.

The difference, though, is that there is no subjectivity with the NBAs shot clock, and that's where I think the trouble lies.  Not only do they know EXACTLY when it's going to start every time, there is also a giant set of numbers right above the hoop informing them of the count.

Seems like golf would have to figure out a way to be more objective.  I dunno ... perhaps give the caddies an earpiece or buzzer of some kind and the RO with the group just "beeps" them as soon as their clock starts each shot.  

[GolfLug]

I am actually glad Jason said what he said in a backwards way. The PGA panders to top tier players and Jason is basically calling them out. It's like he is unintentionally stimulating their balls growth by embarrassing them.. Awesome.  

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I am actually glad Jason said what he said in a backwards way. The PGA panders to top tier players and Jason is basically calling them out. It's like he is unintentionally stimulating their balls growth by embarrassing them.. Awesome.  

I doubt their balls are gonna grow very much.

[GolfLug]

I guess at some point monetary fine was harsh enough penalty. With today's prize money as some posts pointed out until the form of penalty changes to strokes/suspensions, even proper enforcement will not change the situation much for top tier players. Reminds me of a scene from "A Civil Action'. Travolta in his Porsche gets pulled over, gets a ticket, he just takes it, smirks and throws it in his glove box full of prior infraction tickets. Joke.

Also, don't understand why folks 'don't want to see tournament results getting affected that way'. Why not? There many intended/unintended infraction that cost a stroke or more. Use of docking strokes for penalty exists. Could use it additionally for pace control too.

Another post says that time keeping in itself is maybe ambiguous. Not sure if it is, because seems like there IS a system in existence and gets used (players getting put on the clock) when officials choose.

Enforce what is in place and hit where it hurts.

[Golfingdad]

44 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I guess at some point monetary fine was harsh enough penalty. With today's prize money as some posts pointed out until the form of penalty changes to strokes/suspensions, even proper enforcement will not change the situation much for top tier players. Reminds me of a scene from "A Civil Action'. Travolta in his Porsche gets pulled over, gets a ticket, he just takes it, smirks and throws it in his glove box full of prior infraction tickets. Joke.

Also, don't understand why folks 'don't want to see tournament results getting affected that way'. Why not? There many intended/unintended infraction that cost a stroke or more. Use of docking strokes for penalty exists. Could use it additionally for pace control too.

Another post says that time keeping in itself is maybe ambiguous. Not sure if it is, because seems like there IS a system in existence and gets used (players getting put on the clock) when officials choose.

Enforce what is in place and hit where it hurts.

I think you answered your "why not" question with the last three words of the next paragraph.  "... when officials choose."  There seems to be too much subjectivity involved in POP enforcement for some of us to be comfortable with the idea that it could be enforced equitably.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I think you answered your "why not" question with the last three words of the next paragraph.  "... when officials choose."  There seems to be too much subjectivity involved in POP enforcement for some of us to be comfortable with the idea that it could be enforced equitably.

The maximum time method the USGA uses is perfectly equitable.

[Buckeyebowman]

23 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Where do those 24-36 handicappers learn those deliberate routines?

Again, if you had read my posts you would see that I acknowledged that. However, if high handicappers on public courses think that slowing to a snail's pace is going to improve their games, they are fooling themselves! If they are delusional, how is that anyone else's fault? Is it mine? Is it the PGA's? Or is it theirs!

23 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Except you, if the behavior of tour pros affects the playing practices of the guys on your course. (Which you agreed, it does.)

I love it when others tell me "how" I should think! Which I addressed above.  I realized long ago that taking too much time over a shot impacted my play in a negative manner. I like to get to the ball, get my yardage, pull a club, and hit the shot. This, to me, is an ideal round of golf, for me! If others haven't attained this level of self awareness, again, is this the PGA's fault, is it mine, or is it theirs?

The inability to compartmentalize troubles me. The PGA's pace of play belongs to the PGA. The pace of play of golf overall belongs to the USGA and the R&A. And that is for public courses. I saw they were running ads a while ago to try to speed things up. It seems the effort was short lived. Why? Did they solve the problem? I don't think so. Did they run out of money for the promotion? I doubt it! The USGA is wading hip deep in money!

I think the more important point is pace of play on public courses rather than on the Tour. And if the Tour has to lead the way, maybe they should appoint John Daly as the "Czar of Pace of Play"! Whatever else you want to say about the man, he could play fast!

[iacas]

On 1/5/2017 at 10:31 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

I don't have that much of a problem with pace of play on the Tour.

…

My problem is when I see guys (mostly) who can't hit the ball out of their shadows take forever on shots.

@Buckeyebowman, this is the central conflict in what you keep writing.

The people you have a problem with (the second group) learned their behavior from the first group.

I could easily say I don't have a problem with slow play except for when it directly affects me when I'm on the golf course, but that's not how things work. Slow players aren't just slow when they're in the groups in front of me. They're slow all the time. And they're slow because they learned to be slow, and are allowed to be slow. And so on. It's a big web of slooooowwwwwww.

[No Mulligans]

I watched the tournament today. Jason Day seems to be playing at a decent pace at least relative to the other players. Ryan Moore on the other hand, horrible slow. I saw him walk about 40 yards up to the green back to his ball and then a discussion with his caddy, just over 2 minutes for his shot. The announcer made the comment after about two minutes, "and now later in the evening"  

Jason Day is not the problem, it's the culture which is further exasperated by the really slow players like Moore, Speith, Furyk. And of course the Pga and the officiating. 

[Denny Bang Bang]

I can't stand all of the whining by some these tour players... whether it's certain rules, conditions, etc.  They all play on a level playing field, and the best player of each tournament will win.

If you're that good, you should be able to perform at a good pace 

 

[GolfLug]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I think you answered your "why not" question with the last three words of the next paragraph.  "... when officials choose."  There seems to be too much subjectivity involved in POP enforcement for some of us to be comfortable with the idea that it could be enforced equitably.

I don't think there is subjectivity inherent in the method but possibly it may seems like that as enforcement might not be consistent. Honestly I am not sure if that's the case either but if so then that is just straight up wrong and grossly unfair to other players. I would think there would be a greater cry from 2nd, 3rd tier players if that is going on. There's only so much robbing they would take.