Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Jakester23]

9 minutes ago, David in FL said:

If anything, it might drive a temporary increase in viewership.

Any publicity is good publicity...  

I don't agree with that. the NFL had a lot of publicity last year and the ratings were down.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

But in that case then each golfer needs to be reviewed by HD camera for EVERY stroke made since penalties can be incurred even when there was no intention.

No they don't.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Ever seen a game of football without flags?

Comparisons to other sports are pointless.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Come on, who's stretching the bounds of logic here? Allowing a tv viewer to call in a day later and have a player penalized is asinine at best. 

I don't agree. Lexi violated the rules and failed in her responsibility. The committee was obligated to act.

Lexi was not the victim. She was the perpetrator.

3 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

While I agree that she knows the rules and should know better, I don't think you can read intent into that video. I saw it as more carelessness. She approached from the side instead of straight back. Intent is very hard to prove. I didn't see anything in front of the ball that was obvious, like a spike mark.

I agree that it seemed like carelessness, not intentional cheating.

[Dave2512]

Considering I first heard about this on CBS This Morning this may be the most attention the LPGA has gotten in a long time.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Dave2512

[Braivo]

Just now, boogielicious said:

While I agree that she knows the rules and should know better, I don't think you can read intent into that video. I saw it as more carelessness. She approached from the side instead of straight back. Intent is very hard to prove. I didn't see anything in front of the ball that was obvious, like a spike mark.

Our mind works in crazy ways. She likely approaches and marks her ball from behind 99% of the time. This time she approached and marked from the side. She marks a ball dozens of times per week. It's autopilot. 

Have you ever driven home from work and basically forgotten the drive? What if you went 7mph over the speed limit one day and got a ticket from a camera radar thingy mailed to you, would you remember? Have you ever exited a freeway on a familiar place even though you intended to drive somewhere further down the road? What if they took away your drivers license for such an infraction? Or fined you $10,000? 

I see no evidence this is anything more than her making a mistake by breaking her routine a bit, approaching the ball from the side then her brain did what it always does, and places the ball in front of the marker. With such a short putt she was probably already thinking about the next hole the same way we think about what we're having for dinner on the way home. 

[Vinsk]

Just now, iacas said:

The committee was obligated to act.

What committee? Some random viewer at home? 

[David in FL]

The LPGA isn't the NFL.

As you probably know, the quote refers to an old business adage, usually applied with respect to smaller players in a given field.  

Since the LPGA has something like 9 regular viewers.... 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

Have you ever driven home from work and basically forgotten the drive? What if you went 7mph over the speed limit one day and got a ticket from a camera radar thingy mailed to you, would you remember? Have you ever exited a freeway on a familiar place even though you intended to drive somewhere further down the road? What if they took away your drivers license for such an infraction? Or fined you $10,000?

These arguments make no sense. You don't get to argue "I don't remember it" and get out of the ticket. If you miss your exit, you don't get the time or gas you wasted back for free just because.

She committed a breach of the rules, and paid the penalty. That's it.

She wasn't banned from the LPGA Tour, or whatever else the equivalent to "take away your driver's license" for missing your exit would be.

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

I see no evidence this is anything more than her making a mistake by breaking her routine a bit, approaching the ball from the side then her brain did what it always does, and places the ball in front of the marker. With such a short putt she was probably already thinking about the next hole the same way we think about what we're having for dinner on the way home. 

Very few people are seeing her act as intentional.

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

What committee? Some random viewer at home? 

The Committee.

[boogielicious]

7 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

What committee? Some random viewer at home? 

The committee who received the rules violation.

I know we are all a bit upset this happened, because it does put the game in a negative light. But the real question we need to answer is how to do a better job to get issue brought to the committee faster? If the committee saw this before the end of her round, then it would have only been a 2 stroke penalty. 

Also, the players need to stay more focused. If this was indeed a case of sloppiness, it cost her a lot. I assure you she will always be more careful.

Lastly, for those asking why she marked in the first place, there was a player 3 or so years ago who missed a putt of this length on the 18th that would have won her this major. I am guessing all their coaches told them to always go through your routine regardless of the putts length.

[Wally Fairway]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

See above. That would be a shit show itself. Players would "unknowingly" fail to include penalty strokes all the time. Why should they if there's no additional penalty.

I don't really get your comment here. So are you saying that the players have no integrity and would take advantage and will knowingly sign incorrect scorecards? If you really believe that then you must think that cheating is prevalent in the game. IMO the integrity of the game is maintained if the player is allowed to sign an corrected scorecard when they are made aware of the penalty. (or if like Tiger you can get the ruling committee to blame themselves for not informing you - when it is the player who has the ultimate responsibility).
If that rule was all it should be why is it one that is being addressed in the proposed revision?

I also see people saying that she knowingly cheated by mismarking the ball; I didn't watch the tournament so I don't know how she normally marks her ball. I see another mark close to hers and she seems to be standing 90° to the line of the putt. In my experience, players normally mark the ball directly behind the ball as they are approaching it from that direction. If, as some are claiming, she knowingly cheated then she should be disqualified for a violation of Rule 9-3 (and likely others), and get sanctioned by the LPGA including suspension from events.
It is way too easy to throw out the cheating allegation, based on what a 40 second clip of a 4 day event.

 

 

[Braivo]

Just now, iacas said:

These arguments make no sense. You don't get to argue "I don't remember it" and get out of the ticket. If you miss your exit, you don't get the time or gas you wasted back for free just because.

She committed a breach of the rules, and paid the penalty. That's it.

She wasn't banned from the LPGA Tour, or whatever else the equivalent to "take away your driver's license" for missing your exit would be.

Very few people are seeing her act as intentional.

Some above had started to argue that she was cheating intentionally, I was simply stating a plausible argument as to why I don't believe that is the case. 

Secondly, my point wasn't that she didn't break the rules, but that the penalty is too severe for such a violation. 

I believe everyone involved acted in an appropriate manner, but the rules need to be adjusted to match the infraction. 

If you get caught speeding 7 mph over the limit you're probably ok with $100 fine, but what if it's $1000?

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Some above had started to argue that she was cheating intentionally, I was simply stating a plausible argument as to why I don't believe that is the case. 

Secondly, my point wasn't that she didn't break the rules, but that the penalty is too severe for such a violation. 

I believe everyone involved acted in an appropriate manner, but the rules need to be adjusted to match the infraction. 

If you get caught speeding 7 mph over the limit you're probably ok with $100 fine, but what if it's $1000?

Not really, just looking at all the facts before making any assessment. The main thing is with or without intentional malice is treated the same. When the top players are that close in playing ability, anything could change who wins.

Also, speeding tickets can be higher than $680 in my area. It depends upon how many other violations you are committing to speed. . .

Edited April 3, 2017 by Lihu

[Jack Watson]

Simple solution to this abortion is to draw the line at the signing of the card.  Either find the penalty before that or that's it.

just as the player signs a tour official should sign and then it's over and this nonsense couldn't happen.

 

Right now the signing of the card means nothing apparently might as well not do it

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Jack Watson said:

Simple solution to this abortion is to draw the line at the signing of the card.  Either find the penalty before that or that's it.

just as the player signs a tour official should sign and then it's over and this nonsense couldn't happen.

It seems like making sure everyone plays by the rules could also stop all this nonsense.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

I don't really get your comment here. So are you saying that the players have no integrity and would take advantage and will knowingly sign incorrect scorecards?

The Rules of Golf apply to all levels of play.

But yeah, there'd be some guy out there playing for a million bucks who would cheat. Absolutely. Just as there would be some guy who would cheat in a club championship, or a mini-tour event, or a local amateur event or qualifier.

Absolutely.

There's a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. Lexi wasn't "double penalized." She breached two rules:

1. Playing from a wrong place.

2. Signing an incorrect scorecard.

Years ago that would have been a DQ.

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

If you really believe that then you must think that cheating is prevalent in the game.

That's not true. But this is one of the things that keeps it from being more common than it is now.

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

IMO the integrity of the game is maintained if the player is allowed to sign an corrected scorecard when they are made aware of the penalty.

I disagree. The player is responsible for knowing the rules, following them, and attesting to the proper score.

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

If that rule was all it should be why is it one that is being addressed in the proposed revision?

 

For the third time, I think… it's not.

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

It is way too easy to throw out the cheating allegation, based on what a 40 second clip of a 4 day event.

Few people are doing that. Most think it's just a brain fart or something.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Some above had started to argue that she was cheating intentionally, I was simply stating a plausible argument as to why I don't believe that is the case. 

Few people are doing that. Just ignore them.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Secondly, my point wasn't that she didn't break the rules, but that the penalty is too severe for such a violation. 

I addressed that above. It goes to the basic working principles.

I disagree that it was too severe. She violated two rules.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

If you get caught speeding 7 mph over the limit you're probably ok with $100 fine, but what if it's $1000?

I think this was the equivalent of a $100 fine. Then she had to pay a late fee for not submitting her fine payment on time.

1 minute ago, Jack Watson said:

Simple solution to this abortion is to draw the line at the signing of the card.  Either find the penalty before that or that's it.

Again, folks, Lexi is not the victim. She's the perpetrator.

Do I think she had any malice or intent? No, none whatsoever IMO. Just carelessness. But she committed the breach(es).

[Patch]

Intentional or not. She violated a rule, attention was brought up about the violation, she recieved the associated penalties for the violation. Done deal. She, and her caddy will know better next time. Perhaps even some of the other lpga players will remember this. It,s professional golf. Professionals should know the rules, and penalties associated with their profession. 

[Dave2512]

Maybe the tours should have somebody reviewing what the cameras record and have an official process for things like this. Seems the gripe is a viewer is the source. Players are going to miss things, my guess is there are more unintentional infractions than we realize. If the players knew there was an official review maybe they'd be more cautious.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Patch said:

Intentional or not. She violated a rule, attention was brought up about the violation, she recieved the associated penalties for the violation. Done deal. She, and her caddy will know better next time. Perhaps even some of the other lpga players will remember this. It,s professional golf. Professionals should know the rules, and penalties associated with their profession. 

Y'see, everyone, it can really be just that simple.

[Braivo]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think this was the equivalent of a $100 fine. Then she had to pay a late fee for not submitting her fine payment on time.

To compare this to Lexi you'd have to say this is the equivalent to having the ticket due the day of the infraction when you didn't find out about it until a week later.

If we can agree it was unintentional, then this means she did not knowingly sign an incorrect scorecard. Why should one bit of carelessness carry with it two penalties?