Tiger's Swing "Dip"

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

Yay! I'm for that...

To be fair, that was from when these posts were still in this topic…

In this topic, most of the posts are on-topic again. I split them off.

10 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

Anyway, I'm just an old guy trying to get back to golf after years.  One thing I watch for are the legs in the downswing.  I look for a kind of push down to the ground with the feet and dip down, bowing the legs a little.  I saw a lot of that in the pictures of the older golfers.  
It is something I was taught to try to do that can create and increase power through the ball.  (I will try it again if I ever am able to get back to swinging the club.) 
BTW, one of the reasons TST is so great is several members' ability just to stay on an even keel when others seem to be sliding overboard.  Best regards,-Marv

Yep. Not a bad feeling at all. You can over-do it, of course, and in dipping down you actually lighten yourself temporarily. That's why the trail knee regaining flex is actually doing the opposite of what Peter Kostis said in that video up above…

[woodzie264]

5 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.  A 15 handicapper lecturing me and telling me I am being childish.

I don't see where you've posted your handicap....by you're logic, I'm assuming you're a Pro to be lecturing Erik...yes?

[nevets88]

Announcers have been talking about his head dip forever. I don't remember when I first heard it, but guessing mid 2000s? It was like the go to talking point whenever his swing went wrong. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

It was like the go to talking point whenever his swing went wrong. 

Yep.

[GolfLug]

I don't get why slight head dipping so bad.

My understanding is that the dynamic swing center (I am only guessing that is somewhere above the solar plexus) needs to or can lower a bit (hence the head dips along with it) when angles between a) right upper arm and forearm and b) wrist angle 'squeeze' to bring the club down in transition. IMO players that go down hard do this more.

I know a slightly different movement but remember Lorena Ochoa whose head used to almost fall off behind her shoulders in transition. I think she had to pump her finish twice just to pull it back on.. :-))

Also, in comparison Rory or Garcia look like they are dipping down to literally take a bite out of the ball before the club gets to it. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by GolfLug

[nevets88]

When Harmon took over, Woods was flying his wedges over greens. IIRC, Harmon shortened the backswing, gave him that cut off finish and his wedge game got real good. Recall of his driver changes back then, fuzzy. He was still using a metal shafted driver. He had that big right miss, yes?

When he switched to Haney, don't remember if he switched to graphite before or after. Somewhere circa Haney, talk of getting stuck and wild driver. Gonna guess announcers started getting on the dip thing a little pre Haney-ish?

[Veteran Golf Fan]

Mod: Since @Veteran Golf Fan can't keep things on topic, posts #43-47 were moved from the Peter Kostis swing analysis topic to this one.

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

I honestly don't think you read posts or you're purposely being obtuse.

@iacas posted the video of Patrick Reed. It's recent, Reed has Epic headcovers in his bag.

Did you see the video?

Do you think Reed pressures his right foot on the downswing?

You really don't like the head dipping do you?

Most good players have a little dip into transition.

Most good players don't dip excessively like Tiger did prior to his swing fix.  Man, that excessive dip led to a lot of problems not clearing the hips and getting stuck on the way down.  Glad he got it fixed so he can concentrate on beating a lot of pro's this year.

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Most good players don't dip excessively like Tiger did prior to his swing fix.  Man, that excessive dip led to a lot of problems not clearing the hips and getting stuck on the way down.  Glad he got it fixed so he can concentrate on beating a lot of pro's this year.

@mvmac has posted examples in the other (Tiger "Dip") thread that demonstrate that Rory McIlroy, Adam Scott, and Jordan Spieth all dip their heads similarly to the way Tiger does.  The Wayne Defrancesco video that @iacas posted shows clearly that Johnny Miller, Brandel Chamblee, and even Ben Hogan dipped quite a lot as well.  On page 2 of that same thread, there is pictorial evidence that Bubba Watson, Bill Haas, Dustin Johnson, and (I think) Jason Day also dip quite a bit.

That is 11 players total, and 7 of them have been considered the best player in the world at some point in their careers.  There's something on the order of 36 or 37 majors championships and probably somewhere in the vicinity of 150 PGA tournament victories represented by "dippers" right there, so my question to you is:

What would you say is the evidence (besides Peter Kostis saying so) that dipping your head is a bad thing?

[Veteran Golf Fan]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

@mvmac has posted examples in the other (Tiger "Dip") thread that demonstrate that Rory McIlroy, Adam Scott, and Jordan Spieth all dip their heads similarly to the way Tiger does.  The Wayne Defrancesco video that @iacas posted shows clearly that Johnny Miller, Brandel Chamblee, and even Ben Hogan dipped quite a lot as well.  On page 2 of that same thread, there is pictorial evidence that Bubba Watson, Bill Haas, Dustin Johnson, and (I think) Jason Day also dip quite a bit.

That is 11 players total, and 7 of them have been considered the best player in the world at some point in their careers.  There's something on the order of 36 or 37 majors championships and probably somewhere in the vicinity of 150 PGA tournament victories represented by "dippers" right there, so my question to you is:

What would you say is the evidence (besides Peter Kostis saying so) that dipping your head is a bad thing?

Let's see, no majors since 2008, going through 4 swing coaches since, video evidence in slow motion showing a stuck position at impact from "excessive" head dipping.  By the way, the other players you mentioned were never as bad as the bad habits Tiger got into which caused wild driving and constant scrambling.

[DaveP043]

30 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Let's see, no majors since 2008, going through 4 swing coaches since, video evidence in slow motion showing a stuck position at impact from "excessive" head dipping.  By the way, the other players you mentioned were never as bad as the bad habits Tiger got into which caused wild driving and constant scrambling.

Oy, saying it is so easy, and illustrates so little.  Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more true.  I'm more than willing to be impartial, but I see illustrations and videos and still photos that appear to indicate you're wrong, and nothing but words from you.  Would it be too much to ask YOU to provide some video, or even still photos, showing the difference in Tiger's swing, or comparisons to some of the other videos posted?  And maybe post your videos in a Tiger dipping thread, instead of the Kostis thread?

Edited January 10, 2018 by DaveP043

[Golfingdad]

19 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Let's see, no majors since 2008, going through 4 swing coaches since, video evidence in slow motion showing a stuck position at impact from "excessive" head dipping.

It's a fact that he's won no majors since 2008 and a fact that he's had different swing coaches.  It's your opinion that the cause of those is that he dips his head "excessively."  But that's not evidence, it's just you saying so.

23 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

By the way, the other players you mentioned were never as bad as the bad habits Tiger got into which caused wild driving and constant scrambling.

Really?  The pictures I'm seeing say otherwise.  Here's a still of the DeFrancesco video with Tiger and Hogan side-by-side:

And in this post: 

Rory clearly dips more than Tiger does in those stills.  The same is true of DJ and JD in this post:

Considerably more head dip than Tiger.

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Oy, saying it is so easy, and illustrates so little.  Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more true.  I'm more than willing to be impartial, but I see illustrations and videos and still photos that appear to indicate you're wrong, and nothing but words from you.  Would it be too much to ask YOU to provide some video, or even still photos, showing the difference in Tiger's swing, or comparisons to some of the other videos posted?  And maybe post your videos in a Tiger dipping thread, instead of the Kostis thread?

Sorry, I didn't mean to post the same thing as you - honestly I didn't read yours until I posted. ;)

Also, my bad for drifting to the tiger dip in the Kostis thread.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Most good players don't dip excessively like Tiger did prior to his swing fix.

What swing fix? Who did this swing fix? You previously said some very not-so-nice things about his most recent coach (and my pal)… so when was this fixed?

Also, you have no idea how much he dipped at various times throughout his career. For all you know, he dipped the most in 1999-2000. Or 2007-2008.

So where are you getting this information? Peter Kostis? You said he's basically infallible, and we know that's not true (in the other topic). Then, weirdly, you said to only consider his commentary from the last few years, but that wouldn't explain his commentary on Tiger from, say, 2009.

1 hour ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Man, that excessive dip led to a lot of problems not clearing the hips and getting stuck on the way down.

You've still not responded to the point I've made a few times: that "dipping" can provide more room for the right elbow.

1 hour ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Glad he got it fixed so he can concentrate on beating a lot of pro's this year.

When did he fix it (in your esteemed opinion)?

49 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

What would you say is the evidence (besides Peter Kostis saying so) that dipping your head is a bad thing?

Please answer that, @Veteran Golf Fan.

42 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Let's see, no majors since 2008…

He was also injured for much of that time, went through the scandal in 2009/2010, and won more PGA Tour events in 2012-2013 than anyone else, including being PGA Tour Player of the Year in 2013 with five PGA Tour victories.

In fact, in 2013…

• Player of the Year
• Leading money winner
• Vardon Trophy

So… you have injuries, a scandal, and the two years he played something resembling a full schedule, he won more events than anyone else.

42 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

no majors since 2008, going through 4 swing coaches since

Since when? 2008? No. Haney was his instructor from 2003 through mid-2010, and Chris starting in, what, late 2014?

42 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

video evidence in slow motion showing a stuck position at impact from "excessive" head dipping.

Where's the video?

And to be clear, Tiger's getting "stuck" isn't at impact. It's around A5-A6…

42 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

By the way, the other players you mentioned were never as bad as the bad habits Tiger got into which caused wild driving and constant scrambling.

:sigh:

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm more than willing to be impartial, but I see illustrations and videos and still photos that appear to indicate you're wrong, and nothing but words from you. Would it be too much to ask YOU to provide some video, or even still photos, showing the difference in Tiger's swing, or comparisons to some of the other videos posted? And maybe post your videos in a Tiger dipping thread, instead of the Kostis thread?

Yep. Time to put up, or shut up (about this, at least?).

(And @DaveP043 was not at fault here - his post was moved here too.)

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Really?  The pictures I'm seeing say otherwise.  Here's a still of the DeFrancesco video with Tiger and Hogan side-by-side:

The poster frame of that video shows Hogan with a LOT of room for that right elbow. He's nowhere near "stuck."

[iacas]

20 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Hey, he is swinging different now.  Post something from the Hero and we will be good to go.

That is from the Peter Kostis topic.

Here are three videos of swings from the 2017 HERO:

So, you were saying, @Veteran Golf Fan?

[GolfLug]

 

1 hour ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

So here is a good question I am sure someone on the blog will make a comment on.   Tiger has always swung very hard at the ball, often at 115-120 MPH on the driver.  Couple that with the excessive head dipping, all he had to be was just a fraction off on his strike being stuck to deliver some very off line tee shots.  Do I get at least an AMEN on that?  Kostis has pointed that out on more than one occasion.  Good thing Tiger finally addressed that at Hero and hopefully it will continue at Torrey.  He is still plenty long with far more control.

@Veteran Golf Fan, yeah, most agree that 'excessive' head dipping can magnify variance. But excessive is relative, no? 

Also, 'plenty' long is another relative term that you are using. So, let's say he gets 'far' more control by reducing 'excessive' dipping, will he still be the same level of 'plenty' long?  If the difference now is between hitting 8 irons instead 9 irons then plenty of smart folks know that there is cost to be paid for that as well. Who knows and how do quantify?  

One thing we can go by is the current crop of no.1s in the last few years all have 'plenty' head dip and are 95% percentile of 'plenty' long.  

[Keep It Simple]

As an amateur and early days as a pro, Tiger stayed relatively level.  His hips were so fast that if they fired too early he got stuck.  In video you can see in his early swings he took the club back slower and more deliberately conscious of not transitioning too quickly and letting the lower body outrace the upper.  When Butch starting working with him, they focused on getting the hands moving before the lower body in the downswing keeping them more in front of the chest (at the very least as a feel).  This was to prevent getting stuck.  I believe the dip started to appear during this change.  The hips wanted to fire but instead they would start to squat because a move too early towards the target would have resulted in getting stuck again.

You see this in players with very fast hips (ie. Rory Mcilroy).

So I believe the dip is not causing him to get stuck.  It is the by product of trying to avoid getting stuck. 

Reference Video:

 

 

[Golfingdad]

18 minutes ago, Keep It Simple said:

As an amateur and early days as a pro, Tiger stayed relatively level.  His hips were so fast that if they fired too early he got stuck.  In video you can see in his early swings he took the club back slower and more deliberately conscious of not transitioning too quickly and letting the lower body outrace the upper.  When Butch starting working with him, they focused on getting the hands moving before the lower body in the downswing keeping them more in front of the chest (at the very least as a feel).  This was to prevent getting stuck.  I believe the dip started to appear during this change.  The hips wanted to fire but instead they would start to squat because a move too early towards the target would have resulted in getting stuck again.

You see this in players with very fast hips (ie. Rory Mcilroy).

So I believe the dip is not causing him to get stuck.  It is the by product of trying to avoid getting stuck. 

Reference Video:

 

 

Without having any software on hand to analyze, and just using a naked eye and trying to stop it at certain points, I don't see a lot of differences in those swings at all ... that is, in regards to the height of his head throughout the swing.  Now that might not be the best barometer, I have no idea, but that's all I'm looking at.  The two swings from 1996 are good ones because the top of his head at setup is right in line with the horizon and when I freeze it somewhat near impact, in both cases, its plenty below the horizon.

Maybe 2014 and 2015 he drops a little bit more?  But to the naked eye it doesn't seem like it's that much more.

Great video though. 

 

[Keep It Simple]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Without having any software on hand to analyze, and just using a naked eye and trying to stop it at certain points, I don't see a lot of differences in those swings at all ... that is, in regards to the height of his head throughout the swing.  Now that might not be the best barometer, I have no idea, but that's all I'm looking at.  The two swings from 1996 are good ones because the top of his head at setup is right in line with the horizon and when I freeze it somewhat near impact, in both cases, its plenty below the horizon.

Maybe 2014 and 2015 he drops a little bit more?  But to the naked eye it doesn't seem like it's that much more.

Great video though. 

 

Yes, good catch on the 1996 swing.  However it depends on which dip we are talking about (I might not have understood the thread correctly).  In 96-98 he appears to start dipping during the backswing.  Later on he stays more level in the backswing and dips more during the downswing which was the dip I was looking at.  But later again (after the Harmon years) he does start dipping in the backswing again.

But I am not using any software either.  I don't know if my naked eye is serving me correctly.  

Thanks for video cheers!  

Edited January 11, 2018 by Keep It Simple

[Mr. Desmond]

Is it a head dip or a squat that causes the head to dip?