Tiger's Swing "Dip"

[Veteran Golf Fan]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

In the opinion of many, Peter Kostis is a lousy instructor. @mvmac just showed you a bunch of PGA Tour winners dipping.

Brandel Chamblee and Johnny Miller would rail on Tiger dipping every time he hit a poor (often really only by his standards) shot, and ignore it when he hit good shots. And yet…

Good players go down so that they can explode upward.

That video, btw, is from 2010.

BTW, that's not to say that Tiger should dip as much as he wants, or that any method or way in which he "dips" is okay. Tiger tended to dip a bit differently at various times. When it got really extreme (perhaps in trying to create even more power at the bottom), it was not only a little excessive but it was done kind of improperly.

But blanket statements about Tiger dipping are almost always pretty inaccurate. Tiger dipped when he was playing well in 2000, he dipped when he was tearing it up as a junior, he dipped in 2007-2008 when he was playing well… etc.

Watched some older films of the great Jack Nicklaus who seemed to have a pretty good career, right.  When he was a kid and younger man, he would work on his fundamentals prior to the golf season.  His teacher, Jack Grout would grab his hair  to keep him from dipping and it seemed to work pretty well.  Jack's signature move was to tilt his chin to the right for greater freedom on the backswing.  Not many signs of dipping in that swing.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

In the opinion of many, Peter Kostis is a lousy instructor. @mvmac just showed you a bunch of PGA Tour winners dipping.

Brandel Chamblee and Johnny Miller would rail on Tiger dipping every time he hit a poor (often really only by his standards) shot, and ignore it when he hit good shots. And yet…

Good players go down so that they can explode upward.

That video, btw, is from 2010.

BTW, that's not to say that Tiger should dip as much as he wants, or that any method or way in which he "dips" is okay. Tiger tended to dip a bit differently at various times. When it got really extreme (perhaps in trying to create even more power at the bottom), it was not only a little excessive but it was done kind of improperly.

But blanket statements about Tiger dipping are almost always pretty inaccurate. Tiger dipped when he was playing well in 2000, he dipped when he was tearing it up as a junior, he dipped in 2007-2008 when he was playing well… etc.

In the opinion of many, Kostis is a premier analyzer as being the lead analyst for CBS for many years.  He has seen all the great players in the past 25 years up close and personal.  He can quickly pin point why a player hits it the way they do, both good and bad.

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Allow me to define it since you said I haven't defined it. Excessive - Going beyond the usual, necessary or proper limit or degree.

Cool. Now you have to define the "usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree." How much is excessive, and how much is the right amount? Clearly the "right amount" is not to drop at all, as @mvmac showed - most of the game's best players dropped, including Johnny Miller and Brandel Chamblee.

30 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Yes, Tiger went way beyond the proper limit or degree when starting down

When? He didn't always, even when he was dipping on average more than other times.

30 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

and it led to inconsistency and numerous blocks due to getting stuck.

Did you read the part about how dipping down - particularly the way Tiger did it - can actually lead to being LESS stuck than remaining more "un-dipped"? When you dip, your hip retracts back out of the way, and your right elbow has more room. That's the opposite of being stuck.

30 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

During the Haney years, he had trouble hitting the world with a driver because of "excessive" head dipping and the stuck position.   Kostis was right, by the way.

I'm glad you think Kostis was right, but you haven't presented any sort of evidence to prove that. And, as I've said now at least twice, dipping can provide more room for the right elbow.

12 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Watched some older films of the great Jack Nicklaus who seemed to have a pretty good career, right.  When he was a kid and younger man, he would work on his fundamentals prior to the golf season.  His teacher, Jack Grout would grab his hair  to keep him from dipping and it seemed to work pretty well.  Jack's signature move was to tilt his chin to the right for greater freedom on the backswing.  Not many signs of dipping in that swing.

Jack didn't dip his head much, yep. I agree with that.

Jack also didn't play much with longer, lighter graphite shafts that had 440cc+ clubheads on the ends. Jack was longer than most without needing to build up the GRF to get a few more MPH out of his clubhead.

I could argue here, too, that Tiger is LESS stuck than Jack:

A ton of modern PGA Tour pros, who aren't playing in the 1970s, dip their heads.

Bubba hits it pretty far. And dips quite a bit.

Bill Haas (I started at the top of the alphabet, hence Bubba, Dustin, Bill, Adam…).

This guy drove the ball pretty well this week, and played well tee to green:

This one is considered one of the best drivers of his generation.

7 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

In the opinion of many, Kostis is a premier analyzer as being the lead analyst for CBS for many years.  He has seen all the great players in the past 25 years up close and personal.  He can quickly pin point why a player hits it the way they do, both good and bad.

And in the opinion of many others, he's pretty bad at what he does.

I'm not going to try to convince you of my skills, either. I'm comfortable with that. But you've really got no opinion of your own other than that Kostis is right. Do you know what I mean by "going into flexion from 4-5 can create more rom for your right elbow?" Do you see how I could make the case that Jack is more "stuck" than Tiger Woods? That most modern PGA Tour players are dipping?

P.S. When I have the time later tonight I'm likely going to split this topic off into a separate "Tiger Dipping" discussion. We've both wandered off the topic here, for this thread.

[Veteran Golf Fan]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Cool. Now you have to define the "usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree." How much is excessive, and how much is the right amount? Clearly the "right amount" is not to drop at all, as @mvmac showed - most of the game's best players dropped, including Johnny Miller and Brandel Chamblee.

When? He didn't always, even when he was dipping on average more than other times.

Did you read the part about how dipping down - particularly the way Tiger did it - can actually lead to being LESS stuck than remaining more "un-dipped"? When you dip, your hip retracts back out of the way, and your right elbow has more room. That's the opposite of being stuck.

I'm glad you think Kostis was right, but you haven't presented any sort of evidence to prove that. And, as I've said now at least twice, dipping can provide more room for the right elbow.

Jack didn't dip his head much, yep. I agree with that.

Jack also didn't play much with longer, lighter graphite shafts that had 440cc+ clubheads on the ends. Jack was longer than most without needing to build up the GRF to get a few more MPH out of his clubhead.

I could argue here, too, that Tiger is LESS stuck than Jack:

A ton of modern PGA Tour pros, who aren't playing in the 1970s, dip their heads.

Bubba hits it pretty far. And dips quite a bit.

Bill Haas (I started at the top of the alphabet, hence Bubba, Dustin, Bill, Adam…).

This guy drove the ball pretty well this week, and played well tee to green:

This one is considered one of the best drivers of his generation.

And in the opinion of many others, he's pretty bad at what he does.

I'm not going to try to convince you of my skills, either. I'm comfortable with that. But you've really got no opinion of your own other than that Kostis is right. Do you know what I mean by "going into flexion from 4-5 can create more rom for your right elbow?" Do you see how I could make the case that Jack is more "stuck" than Tiger Woods? That most modern PGA Tour players are dipping?

P.S. When I have the time later tonight I'm likely going to split this topic off into a separate "Tiger Dipping" discussion. We've both wandered off the topic here, for this thread.

Which network are you the lead analyst on so I can watch it sometime and have you break down all the swings of great players?  

[boogielicious]

16 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Which network are you the lead analyst on so I can watch it sometime and have you break down all the swings of great players?  

Can you just please stop. This is getting old. Erik is orders of magnitude more qualified to discuss swing mechanics than you are. You are being childish now. 

[Veteran Golf Fan]

13 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Can you just please stop. This is getting old. Erik is orders of magnitude more qualified to discuss swing mechanics than you are. You are being childish now. 

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.  A 15 handicapper lecturing me and telling me I am being childish.

[nevets88]

Woods has always dropped his head as mentioned above.

 

[Wally Fairway]

13 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.  A 15 handicapper lecturing me and telling me I am being childish.

Being childish has to do with maturity, not handicap.
You should continue to belittle others with different opinions (and data to back it up), stand by your TV watching background and claim the moral high ground.
(Then again you haven't posted your handicap, or where you are an instructor, or what books you've authored - so I'll wait before I pass judgement)

 

[Veteran Golf Fan]

45 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Which network are you the lead analyst on so I can watch it sometime and have you break down all the swings of great players?  

Iacas, I had a good laugh when you said Brandel Chamblee was a great player.  That is an alternate universe you are living in.

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.  A 15 handicapper lecturing me and telling me I am being childish.

Hm... Someone who has 13,000+ posts, is TST Staff/Mod, and over 1,000 rep points... I dont care if he is the worst golfer on the planet. I dont care if his swing is worse than charles barkley's. I dont care if his handicap is triple digits. The fact that he has been a member since 2009 and is a staff member/moderator of this site is more than enough for me to respect him. 

Lets look at the facts here. You called out the owner of this site, who also owns a golf training facility and is a successful college golf coach, and when another staff member of this site calls you out for being childish, you attack that staff members handicap.

Logic says the reason that you mentioned his handicap is because your handicap is lower than his? Cool. So what? That doesn't make you a better person than he is. 

     Interesting though you didnt call out Erik for his handicap, just boogielicious. 

[Moxley]

23 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.  A 15 handicapper lecturing me and telling me I am being childish.

What a muddled up way of thinking! 

[Veteran Golf Fan]

5 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Being childish has to do with maturity, not handicap.
You should continue to belittle others with different opinions (and data to back it up), stand by your TV watching background and claim the moral high ground.
(Then again you haven't posted your handicap, or where you are an instructor, or what books you've authored - so I'll wait before I pass judgement)

 

The childish ones are the ones who claim they know more than others who have played and watched top level golf for a long time.  I have been low handicap for many years and had a 70 last Saturday playing in 20 MPH winds.  What did you shoot?  By the way, I stated an opinion and was attacked by the likes of Iacas who I don't believe has won on tour the last time I checked.  He said Kostis was not good at his job.  Hmm, wonder how he has kept his job for many, many years.

[billchao]

Lets get back to topic now, thanks.

[JetFan1983]

26 minutes ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

The childish ones are the ones who claim they know more than others who have played and watched top level golf for a long time.  I have been low handicap for many years and had a 70 last Saturday playing in 20 MPH winds.  What did you shoot?  By the way, I stated an opinion and was attacked by the likes of Iacas who I don't believe has won on tour the last time I checked.  He said Kostis was not good at his job.  Hmm, wonder how he has kept his job for many, many years.

It's always funny to see the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Congrats @Veteran Golf Fan on being "that guy." 

[boogielicious]

5 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

It's always funny to see the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Congrats @Veteran Golf Fan on being "that guy." 

He pretty much lived up to the “childish” part.  Sad. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Which network are you the lead analyst on so I can watch it sometime and have you break down all the swings of great players?  

I'm not. I do, however, know a bit about the golf swing.

And I am, however, apparently capable of stumping you by pointing out that "dipping" down the way Tiger does actually can create MORE room for the right elbow to not get stuck.

Or to post an image that I could argue shows Jack as being more "stuck" than Tiger.

You see, I'm not a big fan of giving what people say weight only because of their job title, or whatever. I'm a fan of giving what people have to say by whether it actually makes sense. Whether it is realistic, factual, actual, or broadens my understanding of something, or aligns with the facts.

Peter Kostis says a lot of dumb things, IMO. Like this, which I'd been meaning to put online for a few months now…

I won't get into why or how that doesn't "jive" - it's not the topic of the discussion - but those who know something about GRF would chuckle at what's said in the video. Here's a bit:

2 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Iacas, I had a good laugh when you said Brandel Chamblee was a great player.  That is an alternate universe you are living in.

Uhm, the guy won a PGA Tour event. That alone places him in the top tier of golfers, the top 0.05% or whatever. And I'm probably short a few zeros in that percentage.

So… yeah. He is. He's not top 100 or maybe not even top 500 of all time. But hundreds of millions of people have played golf. The PGA Tour has been around for let's be generous and say 80 years (it hasn't been), and even if you average 25 new winners each year, that's only 2000 possible winners. So arguably he's top 2,000 in the history of golf.

Besides, I never said he was a "great player." (Though, if asked, I would agree.) I said he was one of the game's best. If you had PGA Tour status (for a number of years, especially), you're one of the game's best.

Pretty simple.

Besides, I like my universe. It's full of people who try to make sense, respect one another, can discuss something intelligently and without calling other people names, and who don't get warned for misbehavior.

2 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

The childish ones are the ones who claim they know more than others who have played and watched top level golf for a long time.

You're aware of the fact that the definition of "childish" doesn't say anything about "top level golf" in any dictionary on the planet, right? Or… is that just in my universe, but not in yours?

In my universe, and on my planet, childish is defined by the way one behaves, particularly in how one treats others or reacts to situations.

2 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

By the way, I stated an opinion and was attacked by the likes of Iacas who I don't believe has won on tour the last time I checked.

Brandel Chamblee has, which is why he's (was) one of the game's best players.

Also, there was no attack. If you think anyone who disagrees with you (or your parroted opinion of someone else's) is attacking you, buddy, just pack up and leave right now. This place - and by "this place" I mean the entirety of the Internet - is not for you.

2 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

He said Kostis was not good at his job.

I don't think he is. Videos above are part of the reason why.

1 hour ago, JetFan1983 said:

It's always funny to see the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Congrats @Veteran Golf Fan on being "that guy." 

Kudos for the use, @JetFan1983.

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, Veteran Golf Fan said:

Not many signs of dipping in that swing.

Jack didn't do it much but it did lower into the transition/early downswing. Just measure the top of his head from top of backswing to early downswing. 

And then these guys

 

 

[MarvChamp]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Lets get back to topic now, thanks.

Yay! I'm for that...I have been following for a while, trying to learn something, and I have begun to wonder whether we were going to end up in a wreck at the end of a dead-end road.  
Anyway, I'm just an old guy trying to get back to golf after years.  One thing I watch for are the legs in the downswing.  I look for a kind of push down to the ground with the feet and dip down, bowing the legs a little.  I saw a lot of that in the pictures of the older golfers.  
It is something I was taught to try to do that can create and increase power through the ball.  (I will try it again if I ever am able to get back to swinging the club.) 
BTW, one of the reasons TST is so great is several members' ability just to stay on an even keel when others seem to be sliding overboard.  Best regards,-Marv