Rules Situation: Ball Rests on Twig Over Hole

[Nutsmacker]

My gosh, if the player doesn't get the eagle on this because of the ruling...that is infuriating.  I would have no idea how to figure this one out.  I don't really understand how it couldn't be.  

[406pat]

51 minutes ago, klineka said:

What if I mark the ball, pick the ball up, remove the loose impediment, then attempt to place the ball again?

Also from rule 18-2

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

• In removing a loose impediment on the putting green - Rule 23-1

Rule 20-3d(i)

d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i)

except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

The way I see it, the ball isn't holed and is at rest. You mark, remove the impediment, and go to replace. The ball can't be at rest before it goes into the hole once the impediment is removed so it must be placed outside of the hole far enough that it can come to rest and then be tapped in. No penalty but not automatically holed either.

 

[rehmwa]

I'd assume that unless the ball is holed (equator below the lip).  Then you mark it in whatever way you can (frankly, the hole can serve as your mark in this case), move the stick, put the ball back in such a way that it doesn't fall in 

tap in for a 3 and then swear at the course conditions

I doubt the rules in any way allow the eagle, they tend to lean to the less desirable score if there is any conflict

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I doubt the rules in any way allow the eagle, they tend to lean to the less desirable score if there is any conflict

The Rules don't care about the score. They care about the situation.

[dennyjones]

1 hour ago, 406pat said:

Rule 20-3d(i)

d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i)

except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

The way I see it, the ball isn't holed and is at rest. You mark, remove the impediment, and go to replace. The ball can't be at rest before it goes into the hole once the impediment is removed so it must be placed outside of the hole far enough that it can come to rest and then be tapped in. No penalty but not automatically holed either.

 

This is my best guess.

 

Who said the rules of golf are easy?

[Rulesman]

To the R&A 8 years ago:

A ball, played from off the green seemed to fall into the hole and rest  against the flagstick. On closer inspection it was resting on a leaf which  lay across the hole. The player removed the flagstick fully expecting the  ball to fall into the hole. Astonishingly the ball lay resting on the leaf which stretched across the hole, half below the cup and half above the cup.Even after 1 minute the two items did not move. What is the ruling ?

From the R&A later that day 

Rule 23-1 permits the removal of a loose impediment and absolves the player from penalty if the ball moves as a direct result of such removal. In this particular case, and bearing in mind that the ball’s replacement is not possible, in equity (Rule 1-4) it should be ruled that the ball is “holed”.

[rehmwa]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

The Rules don't care about the score. They care about the situation.

Fine - The 'results' lean that way. I'm not complaining. frankly, I can see why it's naturally that way.  It makes sense that the preferrable results for a player should be clear and non-complex.  If one has to reference a goofy situation, then it's not clear.

[Groucho Valentine]

It really should be a 2, but I'm not sure the rules allow for though since the ball is at rest. If i were scoring this on my round i would write down 3. But there is no way to make a stroke on that  ball with a club without replacing the ball someplace other than where it lies, which then incurs a penalty. Holing out as it lies gives a stroke penally for leaving the stick in, and removing the twig but replacing the ball elsewhere does the same. Quirky. 

[rehmwa]

4 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

To the R&A 8 years ago:

A ball, played from off the green seemed to fall into the hole and rest  against the flagstick. On closer inspection it was resting on a leaf which  lay across the hole. The player removed the flagstick fully expecting the  ball to fall into the hole. Astonishingly the ball lay resting on the leaf which stretched across the hole, half below the cup and half above the cup.Even after 1 minute the two items did not move. What is the ruling ?

From the R&A later that day 

Rule 23-1 permits the removal of a loose impediment and absolves the player from penalty if the ball moves as a direct result of such removal. In this particular case, and bearing in mind that the ball’s replacement is not possible, in equity (Rule 1-4) it should be ruled that the ball is “holed”.

neat - very analogous.....

 

though I have a small complaint about standing around for one minute.....

Edited February 22, 2018 by rehmwa

[bm85]

Oh my goodness.

Bad luck, but the ball didn't go in.

I say you remove the twig (ignore the movement of the ball), replace the ball right by the hole, take out the flag, and tap in for birdie.

 

[Papa Steve 55]

As Iacas said, the rules are not designed to punish the golfer or push his score up., they try and get you the score you earned. I don't think you even have to mark the ball here. You remove the twig as allowed. That is not causing the ball to move, gravity is. you remove the twig, ball falls in, write down a 2.

I hope its not a par three, the last thing you want is an * on your first ace.

[DaveP043]

My first thought was that the ball should be marked, the twig removed, and the ball replaced.  Since it won't stay in its original location, it would be placed at the nearest possible location, leaving a tap-in 3.  Decision 16/3 talks about a ball embedded in the lip of the hole, not totally below the surface of the green, and the decision says the ball should be marked, the damage repaired, and the ball placed on the lip.  That's the closest thing I could find in the decisions. 

@Rulesman's post suggests that because the ball is held up by a loose impediment, rather than embedded, the ball could be considered holed.  I wouldn't argue against the R&A, but I wouldn't have come to that decision on my own.

[colin007]

I don't care if Al Gore, the inventor of golf and writer of the rules, tells me it's a 3 and not a 2, I'm picking that bad boy up and high fiving errybody in my group for my eagle.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

I don't care if Al Gore, the inventor of golf and writer of the rules, tells me it's a 3 and not a 2, I'm picking that bad boy up and high fiving errybody in my group for my eagle.

I don't care if that was my ball lying 2 or 8, I want it counted as holed.

[iacas]

The player scores a 3 (assuming they can make a <1-inch putt). This is a relatively simple ruling in the end.

The ball isn't resting against the flagstick (17-4), so you don't get to remove or straighten the flagstick so it falls into the hole.

The ball doesn't meet the definition of the word "holed," so it's not. Not only is it not below the top level of the hole, it's not entirely within the circumference, either.

You replace the ball (whether you mark it first or remove the twig first is irrelevant) on the lip and tap in for a three.

There's no penalty because you can accidentally move your ball while removing a loose impediment on the putting green.

Wind and gravity and water have nothing to do with this, unless by the time you get there the wind has shaken the flagstick enough that the twig moves enough for the ball to fall into the hole.

6 hours ago, Nutsmacker said:

My gosh, if the player doesn't get the eagle on this because of the ruling...that is infuriating.  I would have no idea how to figure this one out.  I don't really understand how it couldn't be.  

They don't. It's just bad luck.

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

@Rulesman's post suggests that because the ball is held up by a loose impediment, rather than embedded, the ball could be considered holed.  I wouldn't argue against the R&A, but I wouldn't have come to that decision on my own.

Not quite the same situation, really. It was resting against the flagstick, and then it was completely "within" the circumference of the hole, as well. Two small differences. This is more like the topic linked to below.

Two of the people I asked today in the USGA and one in the PGA - and these are people that teach the rules seminars we know and love - agreed with what I wrote above.

P.S. The small text # in the earlier post I made (post #5) was a topic ID #: 82576, which is this topic:

[HJJ003]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The player scores a 3 (assuming they can make a <1-inch putt). This is a simple ruling in the end.

The ball isn't resting against the flagstick (17-4), so you don't get to remove or straighten the flagstick so it falls into the hole.

The ball doesn't meet the definition of the word "holed," so it's not. Not only is it not below the top level of the hole, it's not entirely within the circumference, either.

You replace the ball (whether you mark it first or remove the twig first is irrelevant) on the lip and tap in for a three.

There's no penalty because you can accidentally move your ball while removing a loose impediment on the putting green.

Wind and gravity and water have nothing to do with this, unless by the time you get there the wind has shaken the flagstick enough that the twig moves enough for the ball to fall into the hole.

They don't. It's just bad luck.

So you can’t replace the ball in a spot that the ball would fall in even if it’s replacing it exactly where it was (minus the twig of course)? 

[Piz]

Today's lesson: when in doubt...assume the worst.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, HJJ003 said:

So you can’t replace the ball in a spot that the ball would fall in even if it’s replacing it exactly where it was (minus the twig of course)? 

No.

For example, see Decision 16/3.

That ruling seems even more punitive than this one, because the ball could be entirely in the side of the hole, but if some of it is above the level of the green, it's not holed. This ball in this case isn't even entirely "inside" the hole.

Just now, Piz said:

Today's lesson: when in doubt...assume the worst.

Just because it's not holed in this case doesn't mean the Rules "assume the worst." There are plenty of times the Rules help you. A player today got to drop from thick rough into the fringe or fairway while the announcers were bemoaning the fact that the Rules allowed him to do that.