Question about Short Game Lessons

[Marty2019]

My long game has greatly improved.  I could be breaking 80 consistently, but my short game sucks.  Where a better player would get up and down in 2, much too often I take 4 shots to get up and down.  In a bunker, I just try to get out and on the green.  I'm not getting close to the hole.  Chipping from just off the green, it's usually a chip and a 2-putt.  I went to the practice chipping green yesterday, and I could not stop hitting the ground just behind the ball.  Every chip shot- kerchunk, kerchunk, kerchunk.  I've had a bunch of birdie opportunities lately, but almost never convert one unless it's a 3 foot putt. 

So I'm thinking about getting short game lessons.  What I want to tackle is the entire short game- everything less than a full shot.   Get the ball in the hole.  All of it.  

So my question is, have any of you had short game lessons, or do any of you give short game lessons, and if so, what happens in a short game lesson? 

 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Marty2019 said:

So my question is, have any of you had short game lessons, or do any of you give short game lessons, and if so, what happens in a short game lesson? 

Probably depends on the instructor.

I went from chipping to pitching to on the course type of situations. From your situation, it sounds like you have a technique issue.

My best guess is that you put the ball to far back in your stance. If you are not, then you probably struggle with pivoting (turning) enough.

[klineka]

Providing your handicap might help us provide more relevant information.

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

In a bunker, I just try to get out and on the green.  I'm not getting close to the hole. 

Thats exactly what you are supposed to do. Nothing wrong with that.

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I've had a bunch of birdie opportunities lately, but almost never convert one unless it's a 3 foot putt. 

Define birdie opportunities. Simply getting a GIR but being 25 feet away from the hole isn't something you should consider a birdie opportunity. I typically dont consider it a birdie opportunity unless I'm within 10 feet, even then I know from about 7-10 feet I can expect to make, at the most, 50% of those putts (The best PGA putters make 60-70% from that range)

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

My long game has greatly improved. 

Even though it has greatly improved, there is still probably a good amount of work you can do on your drives and approach shots to help your overall score. 

I'm personally a great example of this. In my 13 GameGolf rounds from the end of last year, I averaged just under 80, yet when looking at the strokes gained, I lost 1.35 off the tee, 3.59 from approach shots, 2.41 from short game, and gained .07 from putting. 

So I lost just under 5 strokes on full shots and 2.34 on short game. Prior to GameGolf, if you asked me my weakness, I would have said short game. Clearly that isnt the case with me.

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Where a better player would get up and down in 2, much too often I take 4 shots to get up and down. 

The absolute best players on the PGA tour this year are around 70% for scrambling. Multiple guys that have won on tour this year average in the 50s % range for scrambling. Those are the best players in the world and they can still win on the PGA tour while only scrambling around 50%.

My scrambling is only 31% on GameGolf yet I still can break 80 on a semi-regular basis. Some people I follow on GameGolf have scramble percentages between 55-65% and are scratch or even plus handicap golfers. But they hit 20-40% more GIR per round than I do. Huge difference there. Your short game doesnt have to be all that great to be good at golf.

I can easily argue that if you hit more GIR, your short game wont matter as much.

Without some kind of stats, GIR%, # of putts (only somewhat useful), strokes gained/lost, etc. it is very difficult to determine if your short game is an actual glaring weakness or not.

I highly suggest reading this thread as well as getting the book LSW, written by the owner of this site.

 

[iacas]

@klineka, maybe short game is his glaring weakness…?

I’ll try to answer tonight. But yeah, go for it @Marty2019.

[klineka]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

@klineka, maybe short game is his glaring weakness…?

Thats certainly a possibility, but you know better than I do it might be that the long game needs more improvement so the short game wont come into play as often.

I was trying to provide additional information to maybe help the OP realize that his short game might not be as much of a weakness as he thinks it is.

Hard to know for certain without more information.

[NM Golf]

Sounds like it might be a combination of a glaring weakness AND unrealistic expectations. Making poor contact and chunking each chip shot is not good, but I suspect even with improvement in your short game technique you will not see the type of scores you think you will.

I am a +1 handicap, according to my statistics I get up and down just over 50% of the time, my sand save percentage is below 20%.  I putt decently, but I'm certainly not draining a bunch of 20 foot birdies. My long game is why I score the way I do.

What I'm getting at is even if you work super hard on your short game, the big improvement in score is just not there; even if you improve dramatically. Now I would certainly try and figure out why you are chunking all of your chips, maybe have someone look at your technique and get you squared away. But I wouldn't do that while neglecting your long game. When you are able to break 80 on a consistent basis, I guarantee it will be your long game that gets you there.

[Patch]

I have several days of short game instruction from Butch Harmon's  school under my belt. Not from Butch him self, but one of his employees. These lessons were several years ago.

On putting; we started with distance control. Length of back stroke equals a certain distance. We worked on hitting straight putts. I was  given drills to work on. The goal was to two putt or less from anywhere on the green. We also worked alot on 3 - 5 foot putts. My putting stroke was already pretty good. I was also fitted to my putter. 

The putting drills I received back then, I still us today. 

Chipping instruction was much different that what I use now. I am a true follower of Paul Runyon's chipping method. Harmon's method back then, from what I can tell is still the norm today. I switched to Runyon's method because it mirrored my putting stroke. The Runyon method is well represented on You Tube, and is easy to learn. 

Pitching to me is just a shorter full swing. If your full swing is good, you shouldn't have any problem pitching. You just adjust your back swing length. 

On shorter pitches, I use the Runyon stroke, with a slightly different ball placement. 

I practice much more on my short game than I do my long game. Probably 3 times as much. It's just the nature of my current game. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Patch

[Marty2019]

6 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Probably depends on the instructor.

I went from chipping to pitching to on the course type of situations. From your situation, it sounds like you have a technique issue.

My best guess is that you put the ball to far back in your stance. If you are not, then you probably struggle with pivoting (turning) enough.

You are absolutely right about the ball being too far back.  I played today, and made a big improvement by putting the ball more forward.  My chipping still sucks, but not as bad as yesterday. 

4 hours ago, klineka said:

Thats certainly a possibility, but you know better than I do it might be that the long game needs more improvement so the short game wont come into play as often.

I was trying to provide additional information to maybe help the OP realize that his short game might not be as much of a weakness as he thinks it is.

Hard to know for certain without more information.

Your points are well taken. 

It's just that, in the past 2 weeks, I have made a major improvement in my long game.  A couple of changes in my swing brought a massive improvement in my ball striking.  So even though it hasn't quite filtered onto the course yet, I am all of a sudden extremely hopeful about making a huge improvement in my iron play.  So what I need in the long game is just practice.  And I'm not going to neglect that.  I love to practice that part of my game. 

My short game sucks.  There's no two ways around it.  I can go my usual route, which is trial and error, or watching youtube videos, and trying to figure things out, or I can cut to the chase and work with a pro.  Why waste time?  I'm 64 years old. 

I really was just curious- what do short game lessons usually consist of?  How do people teach the short game?  And I wanted to hear anyone's experience getting short game lessons.  Also, from the instructors on here, like @iacas, what should I look for in an instructor?  What should a decent instructor be doing?   And so forth. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Marty2019

[nevets88]

I've found playing lessons, 9 holes with a pro, and work on short game stuff  from wherever your ball lands, really helpful. Have done it with @iacas and the pro I'm working with now. There's nothing like working on a shot on a real course on a real situation. Sticks in my mind better. You can also ask those lingering questions, weird stances and lies, stuff like that. Next time I'm gonna ask the pro I'm working with to video me, you're so involved in the shot, you forget that.

[billchao]

9 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

So my question is, have any of you had short game lessons, or do any of you give short game lessons, and if so, what happens in a short game lesson? 

I've taken entire lessons on just short game (and putting). I enjoyed them quite a bit.

The stuff I've done in the past with a pro went like this: they watched me hit a few shots and then gave me setup and mechanical adjustments as needed, then drills and shots, more adjustments if necessary, rinse and repeat. It's not much different than taking a full swing lesson, except you get to see the ball go in the hole sometimes 

Once I got the basic technique down, we went through stuff like hitting the ball higher or lower, getting more spin or roll, etc. It's a smaller motion so it's easier to learn, which is part of why they're enjoyable - you see improvement a lot faster. Sticking with it and practicing is a whole other matter 

5 hours ago, klineka said:

Thats certainly a possibility, but you know better than I do it might be that the long game needs more improvement so the short game wont come into play as often.

At some point you can actually get good enough at the long game where the short game or putting ends up holding you back. That's why the concept of glaring weakness exists, otherwise we'd just go around telling everyone to work on their full swing until their long game is good enough to be scratch, which is unrealistic. Even then, they'd still need their short game on half the holes they play. 

[WUTiger]

7 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Probably depends on the instructor. ...

and the golfer.

I had been playing golf for 25 years before I had my first short-game specific lesson. It really helped me out.

For reasons I won't go into, I used chip-and-run a lot hit from middle of stance. In fact, too much. The pro showed me how to use the PW and SW more in the greenside game. Also, he emphasized taking a shorter back swing to control distance, rather than overswinging and risking deceleration on follow-through.

9 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I went to the practice chipping green yesterday, and I could not stop hitting the ground just behind the ball.

Learning a method for short game can help get you on target. From above, it sounds like you're worried more about making mistakes than doing things properly. A good instructor can help you find a method, so you can do things properly.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

At some point you can actually get good enough at the long game where the short game or putting ends up holding you back. That's why the concept of glaring weakness exists, otherwise we'd just go around telling everyone to work on their full swing until their long game is good enough to be scratch, which is unrealistic. Even then, they'd still need their short game on half the holes they play. 

I completely agree. I answered like I did because it doesnt seem like the OP is breaking 80 consistently, so good chances are there can be pretty substantial gains to be made by improving the long game even if the short game is a weakness

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Patch said:

Pitching to me is just a shorter full swing. If your full swing is good, you shouldn't have any problem pitching. You just adjust your back swing length.

Couldn't disagree much more strongly. Wow. No. There's a long list of differences. I'd describe pitching as almost the exact opposite of the full swing as possible.

---

Take short game lessons. Go for it. Do one on pitching, one on chipping, and one on putts. Or put chipping and pitching together and do two on putting, because chipping is dead simple and so you won't need two lessons there.

You probably won't shave a tremendous number of strokes, but like others have said, it's important to have realistic expectations. Every three feet, particularly inside of 12', that you can chip the ball to the hole, your make % goes up TREMENDOUSLY. Eliminate stupid mistakes around the greens - there are Shot Zones for your short game, too, @Marty2019.

Have fun. Be creative. Learn it and then get back to the full swing.

Heck, post some pitches and chips and putts in your Member Swing topic.

[dennyjones]

It may also be a good idea to actually use an online strokes gained site to really see where the strokes are being lost.     

[boogielicious]

On 2/23/2018 at 6:21 AM, Marty2019 said:

My long game has greatly improved.  I could be breaking 80 consistently, but my short game sucks.  Where a better player would get up and down in 2, much too often I take 4 shots to get up and down.  In a bunker, I just try to get out and on the green.  I'm not getting close to the hole.  Chipping from just off the green, it's usually a chip and a 2-putt.  I went to the practice chipping green yesterday, and I could not stop hitting the ground just behind the ball.  Every chip shot- kerchunk, kerchunk, kerchunk.  I've had a bunch of birdie opportunities lately, but almost never convert one unless it's a 3 foot putt. 

So I'm thinking about getting short game lessons.  What I want to tackle is the entire short game- everything less than a full shot.   Get the ball in the hole.  All of it.  

So my question is, have any of you had short game lessons, or do any of you give short game lessons, and if so, what happens in a short game lesson? 

 

I use Evolvr for both long and short game. I’ve sent in videos for putting, chipping, pitching and sand. Very helpful. 

[phillyk]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:01 AM, Marty2019 said:

I really was just curious- what do short game lessons usually consist of?  How do people teach the short game?  And I wanted to hear anyone's experience getting short game lessons.  Also, from the instructors on here, like @iacas, what should I look for in an instructor?  What should a decent instructor be doing?   And so forth. 

I use two different styles of short game chipping depending on where I am and how firm/soft the ground is.  In the PNW, it's super soft and grass can be thick, so I play ball slightly back of center and open the face slightly to let the bounce do work, while using a slightly steeper stroke.  But when I play a desert course or just places where the ground is super firm and you have to pick it clean, I play the ball center and try not to have too much, if any, forward shaft lean at impact.

Not as important, but something to be aware of that will help is knowing which bounce is right for "your style" of chipping/pitching.  Generally for bunkers you want more bounce. You want more bounce if you are a digger or play more in soft conditions, and you want less bounce if you play in firm conditions or try to pick the ball off the ground more.  These are basic guidelines, meaning it is not true for everyone, but it's a good place to start.  But, you'll want to start with more bounce.  It's rare for a lot of golfers to have minimal bounce on their wedges even if they are a picker.

There's also a couple styles of chipping/pitching: none to none, none to some, and some to some. This is regarding wrist action. "None" doesn't mean rigid, it just means try not to hinge.

The best thing to do is find something you like and stick with it.  A lot of people find something and start tinkering later on, which can make it worse.

Regarding when you take a lesson on it.  It should feel like any other lesson, start out feeling odd and some bad shots but then gets progressively better as you hit more shots under watch.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, phillyk said:

Not as important, but something to be aware of that will help is knowing which bounce is right for "your style" of chipping/pitching.  Generally for bunkers you want more bounce. You want more bounce if you are a digger or play more in soft conditions, and you want less bounce if you play in firm conditions or try to pick the ball off the ground more.  These are basic guidelines, meaning it is not true for everyone, but it's a good place to start.  But, you'll want to start with more bounce.  It's rare for a lot of golfers to have minimal bounce on their wedges even if they are a picker.

I think that is old advice and I hope it's on its way out of golf instruction.

Bounce is glide and forgiveness. My lob wedge has 22° of bounce and I trust it more than anything from the firmest of lies.

It's bogus to say, IMO, that you want less bounce for situations. Plus, the same course can have firm areas, soft areas, etc. Bounce is forgiveness.

Plus, a lot of the clubs with less bounce have wider soles, which limits flexibility.