Is Phil Mickelson Going Nuts?: Hitting a moving ball at US Open

[ScouseJohnny]

5 hours ago, Fidelio said:

Insider trading is a crime in the same way jaywalking is a crime, which is to say it is not a real crime. There is no victim involved in insider trading. One of the key ideas in economics is that prices communicate information.

 

 

Yeah, in much the same way that shill bidding in an auction is a victimless crime...after all, it just communicates price possibilities to the auction room.

Apologies to @iacas, he said this was off-topic for this thread so I'll respect that. I'd welcome a discussion about this in the Grill Room, if the OP is sufficiently motivated. It's an incredible assertion to view insider trading as a victimless crime.

 

 

[turtleback]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

That wasn’t about “guts.” Give me a break.

And you’re missing out on the fact that many people are bothered more by the lying than the original act.

And it wasn't just the lie, it was the fact that it was such an OBVIOUS lie.  He disrespected the game on the course and then insulted the intelligence of the fans with the obvious lie.  A modicum of contrition the next day would have gone a long way towards smoothing things over, but doubling down on lying and wisea$$ery will give this very very long legs.

And someone should give the USGA a slab of steak to put on the black eye they gave themselves.

6 hours ago, Hardluckster said:

Personally, had I been the committee, I would have DQ'd him under rule 1-2. Having said that, the rules concerning this issue are not as straightforward as I think they should be (but I'm no rules expert).  I would expect that the governing bodies might now consider making changes to the wording concerning this issue - at least I would hope that they would.

IMO 33-7 gives them every justification to DQ him.  It is hard to come up with a more exceptionally egregious breach of the rules.  If this doesn't constitute an 'exceptional individual case' I can't imagine what would.

5 hours ago, Braivo said:

Whether he should have been DQ'd is not relevant to his character. 

His character is only relevant to your opinion of him, arguing opinions on the character of an individual is an exercise in futility. 

He purposely broke the rules and accepted the consequences handed to him. 

His character is implicated by his bald faced lie about the situation.

[Buckeyebowman]

I heard a couple of interesting comments by a PGA pro today on the radio. First, he said that people calling for Phil to be DQ'd were insane! Second, both John Daly at Pinehurst, and Kirk Triplett at an earlier tournament, which nobody remembers since it was Kirk Triplett, They were both assessed 2 stroke penalties for similar violations. Neither were DQ'd.

He felt that Curtis and some others were simply trying to raise their profiles by inspiring a controversy! Never forget media self interest in these circumstances.

I'll freely admit that my jaw dropped seeing Phil do that. But, thinking about it later, I can kind of understand. Some other callers to radio shows raised additional thoughts. Maybe he was sending a message to the USGA. Hey guys! Enough is enough, already!

Who really knows?

Edited June 19, 2018 by Buckeyebowman

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

…and Kirk Triplett at an earlier tournament, which nobody remembers since it was Kirk Triplett, They were both assessed 2 stroke penalties for similar violations. Neither were DQ'd.

Kirk Triplett stopped the ball and would have been DQed except he missed the cut and they just didn’t write him down as a DQ.

There was a video segment on it.

[Crim]

7 hours ago, Braivo said:

Funny how this stuff always devolves to judging the "character" of the individual in question.

We want so badly to label the individual as either the protagonist or antagonist, when in reality it's neither. 

Phil is an exceptional golfer, and a flawed human being. 

We should focus our discussion on the integrity of the game rather than the integrity of the individual. 

Any discussion, if any is warranted, should center around the rules and how such situations should be handled in the future. 

To be fair, the thread is called "is Phil going nuts." 

The fact that he lied to his fans and then said "toughen up" about it is a pretty big story IMO. 

I like sports personality stories, I don't know why the discussion has to simply be about the rules.

[bman342]

I am a newbie on this forum, came from the old TGCDB, and the 4GEA Forum, and specifically signed up to view a discussion on Mickelson's action at the US Open on 13. Surprised there is no commentary, so thought I'd open a thread on this. Did the USGA get this right, given 1-2, 14-5, and 33-7? Or should there have been a DQ? Not a rules expert myself, but looking for thoughts from other rules folks.

[krupa]

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

[PGA Tour pro] said that people calling for Phil to be DQ'd were insane

Well, Tour pros have a motivation to publicly support the non-DQ option; sooner or later they could be in the middle of their own rules fracas. Did he have any reasons beyond, "the rules says 2 stroke penalty and that's what he got"?

[DeadMan]

Thought this was a good summary of were on Phil's actions and some thoughts on this: https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/u-s-open-2018-phil-mickelsons-rule-abuse-was-equal-parts-hilarious-and-troubling/

[Elmer]

44 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Thought this was a good summary of were on Phil's actions and some thoughts on this: https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/u-s-open-2018-phil-mickelsons-rule-abuse-was-equal-parts-hilarious-and-troubling/

"Philosophically speaking, that's what Mickelson did. He gained an advantage by breaking the rules."

He broke the rules, was assessed a penalty, Move along!!!!
I think someone "disrespects the game" when they try to break the rules without getting caught.
He did this with the intent of getting caught and carding a 10!
 

[rehmwa]

6 minutes ago, Elmer said:

"Philosophically speaking, that's what Mickelson did. He gained an advantage by breaking the rules."

He broke the rules, was assessed a penalty, Move along!!!!
I think someone "disrespects the game" when they try to break the rules without getting caught.
He did this with the intent of getting caught and carding a 10!
 

Agree - he did something that broke a rule and accepted the penalty (I don't think it was 'calculated' beyond likely "I know I'll get dinged on this" though.  he even knew that DQ was a possibility.  Disrepect or cheating is when you break a rule and try to get away with it.  Now, in a press conference, just own it - no need to pretend it was part of the plan.....  "I broke a rule out of frustration, and was ready to accept whatever penalty USGA directed"

Edited June 19, 2018 by rehmwa

[iacas]

No. It was disrespectful. You don’t play a moving ball like that. It goes against the very foundation of the game.

I still think the lying was worse but I’m not giving him a pass because he didn’t “try to get away with it.” There are things you just don’t do. That’s one of them.

[djfajt71]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 9:26 PM, amished said:

Phil's action cost nobody but himself anything as it pertains to the tournament. 

Actually, by not being DQ'ed or playing the hole as normal and letting the ball finish rolling out, he took money from the folks that finished in the same position as him. 

[GolfLug]

27 minutes ago, Elmer said:

 

I think someone "disrespects the game" when they try to break the rules without getting caught.
He did this with the intent of getting caught and carding a 10!
 

That's like saying robbery in broad daylight without a mask is much better than theft.🤨

[krupa]

48 minutes ago, Elmer said:

I think someone "disrespects the game" when they try to break the rules without getting caught.

I would say that breaking the rules with a big smile on your face is also disrespecting the game.

[DeadMan]

I sort of think that Phil didn't cheat - he wasn't trying hide a stroke or hide that he broke the rules. But I also think it's obvious that he broke the rules, he probably should have been disqualified, and he was disrespectful towards the game, course, and his fellow competitors.

[Elmer]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. It was disrespectful. You don’t play a moving ball like that. It goes against the very foundation of the game.

I still think the lying was worse but I’m not giving him a pass because he didn’t “try to get away with it.” There are things you just don’t do. That’s one of them.

"disrespect" is a matter of personal interpretation. Much in the same that some find it "disrepectful" to wear a ball cap at the dinner table, others do not.
the definition of "disrespect" is "showing a lack of respect or courtesy; impolite."
To me, he broke a rule and took the penalty.

I also do not find it goes against the "foundation of the game". It goes against the rules. golfers break rules all the time, knowingly and unknowingly and they get penalized.

Of all the cheating that goes on in golf, is this the worst thing to happen on a golf course.
I have to imagine a golfer somewhere at sometime, took an unplayable and penalty because they dont want to hit the ball as it lie. How is this different than using the rules?

16 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

That's like saying robbery in broad daylight without a mask is much better than theft.🤨

 except one is a crime and one is a rule in a golf tournament!
Once again there are plenty who cheat and break rules in golf and never say a word and never get caught. but Mickelson has ruined the game?

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Elmer said:

"disrespect" is a matter of personal interpretation. Much in the same that some find it "disrepectful" to wear a ball cap at the dinner table, others do not.
the definition of "disrespect" is "showing a lack of respect or courtesy; impolite."
To me, he broke a rule and took the penalty.

He took the wrong penalty. He should have been disqualified. It was flippant and disrespectful. Golf is about accepting the good and bad bounces. Do you want to see every golfer run up to a putt and whack it before it rolls off the green? What if he was in contention, or trying to make the weekend, and the difference was one stroke. Lets say it takes him four strokes to get up and down. How do you think the golfer he just bumped out should feel? It was disrespectful to every golfer who plays golf the right way.

31 minutes ago, Elmer said:

Of all the cheating that goes on in golf, is this the worst thing to happen on a golf course.
I have to imagine a golfer somewhere at sometime, took an unplayable and penalty because they dont want to hit the ball as it lie. How is this different than using the rules?

This is in line with signing for the wrong score. He could have ended up with a totally different score, but he was selfish and purposely broke a rule.

[rehmwa]

41 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I sort of think that Phil didn't cheat - he wasn't trying hide a stroke or hide that he broke the rules. But I also think it's obvious that he broke the rules, he probably should have been disqualified, and he was disrespectful towards the game, course, and his fellow competitors.

that's a good way to state it