Question on Lost Ball Inbounds

[RussUK]

Just now, DDBowdoin said:

While I generally agree with you at roughly 99%, there is 1% of me that has some followed some low PGA tour players who spread the ball EVERYWHERE and have marshalls finding balls.

We have saying over here, "Why have a dog and bark yourself"

[DDBowdoin]

What happens when someone just takes your ball... this happens ALL the time on these crap public dog tracks I play.

[Rulesman]

If you know or are virtually certain that your ball has been stolen simply replace it. No penalty.

See http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18,18-1

and http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-20,20-3

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Rulesman

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

If you know or are virtually certain that your ball has been stolen simply replace it. No penalty.

Just so people know, lack of evidence does not validate virtual certainty. Meaning, a golfer can't claim a ball was taken by someone just because it's not were they expect it to be.

Quote

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

I would say, 99% of the time, there isn't a virtual certainty that the ball was stolen or moved by an outside agency. 

[DDBowdoin]

28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Just so people know, lack of evidence does not validate virtual certainty. Meaning, a golfer can't claim a ball was taken by someone just because it's not were they expect it to be.

I would say, 99% of the time, there isn't a virtual certainty that the ball was stolen or moved by an outside agency. 

I'd agree with this... of the countless times I assumed it happened I've only seen two or three people straight up pick my ball up from the tee as they walked into my hole.  It happens all the time because I see people picking up balls or yelling over to a buddy "hey man, did you hit a Callaway with a blue dot? No? Ok, I'm just going to pick this one up".

[Grinde6]

17 hours ago, aguynamededdy said:

Amateurs don't have the luxury of thousands of spectators and countless marshal's to help locate a ball. Do you think there should be a rule that provides relief for us amateurs when we hit the ball just off the fairway but can't find it in the rough? That's the one thing I think is incredibly unfair in regards to how lucky the tour pros are to have so many people at their disposal dedicated to tracking their shot.

Nope...not to be an ass, but take some time to get some control with your driver...I have spent countless hours at the range for the purpose of hitting a controlled drive that I know will find the fairway...probably about a 70% swing (problem is I don't use it like I should...haha).  I, like many others, have played with a lot of people that when they go to search for their ball in the rough they are about 15-20+ yards ahead of where we eventually end up finding their ball.  I think this would just create a lot of people saying "eff it" and trying to take a drop 20+ yards ahead of where their ball really was. 

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, Moxley said:

Yes, but it's the same penalty if your ball is 300 yards down and 1 yard out of bounds, than it is if you shank it off the planet. It would be penal enough if you could drop by the (estimated) crossing point with a single stroke penalty, and would avoid all the time traipsing back to the tee (or the time keeping 2 balls in play).
 

If you aren't 100% sure your ball is in play and will be found, hit a provisional.  That will save all that time.  Make sure you use the word "provisional." 

Out of bounds is out of bounds.  You should generally plan your shots to avoid it.  It's deliberately more penal than a lateral hazard for a reason -- it's a course design and rules feature, not a bug.

[alleztom]

 

2 hours ago, Moxley said:

Yes, but it's the same penalty if your ball is 300 yards down and 1 yard out of bounds, than it is if you shank it off the planet.

 

And it is still one more stroke if a putt hovers over the lip and doesn't go in, lips out or if the put rolls 6' by. That's golf hey?

[Moxley]

16 minutes ago, Shindig said:

If you aren't 100% sure your ball is in play and will be found, hit a provisional.  That will save all that time.  Make sure you use the word "provisional." 

Out of bounds is out of bounds.  You should generally plan your shots to avoid it.  It's deliberately more penal than a lateral hazard for a reason -- it's a course design and rules feature, not a bug.

I do indeed play a provisional, and I can't remember the last time I hit a ball out of bounds, might not even be this year. I don't personally have a problem going oscar bravo, I'm just thinking about balance in the rules. 

Provisional balls improve matters, but sometimes people spray their original and provisional in opposite directions - that can lose a lot of time. I also find that the worst hole for OOB on my local course sees most people , myself included, more or less aiming into the trees on the other side to take OOB out of play, again slowing play when you end up in the woods/rough. 

I get the reasons why it's there, and I understand that it's been well considered (and changed several times), I just think dropping by the crossover point (when you can see the ball and reasonably project it) would be sufficient while speeding up the game. 
 

 

[edomingox]

I think the reason why people lose balls more often, and I see this all the time when I'm playing with others, is that people are looking in the wrong place.  I found it easier and saves time when I watch where their ball for them.  They tend to be looking for it 20-30 yards farther than they actually hit it.  I remember telling one guy who was at 300 yards looking for his ball he sliced into the woods.

[Groucho Valentine]

No.

I admit, I've found and played balls at tournaments with marshals around that i normally would have lost and or gave up on, but its just the way the game is. 

[Shindig]

11 hours ago, Moxley said:

I do indeed play a provisional, and I can't remember the last time I hit a ball out of bounds, might not even be this year. I don't personally have a problem going oscar bravo, I'm just thinking about balance in the rules. 

Provisional balls improve matters, but sometimes people spray their original and provisional in opposite directions - that can lose a lot of time. I also find that the worst hole for OOB on my local course sees most people , myself included, more or less aiming into the trees on the other side to take OOB out of play, again slowing play when you end up in the woods/rough. 

I get the reasons why it's there, and I understand that it's been well considered (and changed several times), I just think dropping by the crossover point (when you can see the ball and reasonably project it) would be sufficient while speeding up the game. 
 

 

This example in your second paragraph reminds me of an example from the Broadie text where the optimal target might have OB in your shot zone (as the in-bounds but other side is too penal on the shot).  

Either way, I like OB having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard;  played properly, it's used to encourage play away from something where we'd rather balls don't go (like on the road adjacent to the course) as opposed to places that we'd also like to discourage balls from going, but that aren't as important (for the course designer) to tell people to avoid (such as a lake). 

[jmanbooyaa]

21 hours ago, DDBowdoin said:

What happens when someone just takes your ball... this happens ALL the time on these crap public dog tracks I play.

Free drop when i play with strangers or friends. But it must be agreed upon by all and someone has to have seen another group lurking where the ball landed. 

[millsan1]

On 8/1/2018 at 7:59 AM, alleztom said:

More existentially - how do you know it is still in bounds if you haven't found it?

It is both inbounds and out of bounds until observed.  Ask the cat.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, millsan1 said:

It is both inbounds and out of bounds until observed.  Ask the cat.

I wonder if Schrodinger played golf?

[Fourputt]

On 8/1/2018 at 6:38 AM, Moxley said:

Yes, but it's the same penalty if your ball is 300 yards down and 1 yard out of bounds, than it is if you shank it off the planet. It would be penal enough if you could drop by the (estimated) crossing point with a single stroke penalty, and would avoid all the time traipsing back to the tee (or the time keeping 2 balls in play).

 

Out of bounds is out of bounds - doesn't matter if it's an inch or 100 yards.  In either case, the ball has left the playing field and is necessarily subject to the same penalty.  It goes to equity, treating similar situation in the same way.  When I hit a ball that is near the boundary line but it is uncertain if it's in or out, I'll play a provisional ball.  

[MacDutch]

On 8/1/2018 at 4:07 PM, DDBowdoin said:

 .. of the countless times I assumed it happened I've only seen two or three people straight up pick my ball up from the tee as they walked into my hole.

@Gilberg is it you? 😂

Edited August 3, 2018 by MacDutch

[Missouri Swede]

17 hours ago, millsan1 said:

It is both inbounds and out of bounds until observed.  Ask the cat.

 

7 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I wonder if Schrodinger played golf?

Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn’t.