Tour Players and 2019 Rules (Running Topic)

[iacas]

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

However, I disagree with the words that I have highlighted in bold - my understanding is that you cannot avoid the penalty by backing off the shot and starting again.

So did people on Twitter. They didn't read the correct section of the Rule either.

I love the outrage that occurs when something like this happens. The rule is fine, and the player breached it. I don't care about "intent" here, nor do many of the Rules. The player also, in this case, had a chance to "fix" things and didn't. I also love the calls to add subjectivity and all this BS about whether "an advantage" was gained. See my response in the Denis Pugh topic for a brief bit on that.

[arab_joe]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

So did people on Twitter. They didn't read the correct section of the Rule either.

I love the outrage that occurs when something like this happens. The rule is fine, and the player breached it. I don't care about "intent" here, nor do many of the Rules. The player also, in this case, had a chance to "fix" things and didn't. I also love the calls to add subjectivity and all this BS about whether "an advantage" was gained. See my response in the Denis Pugh topic for a brief bit on that.

I stand corrected.  That makes sense (although it is a bit strange that the exception applies for a putt on the green but not for any other shot).

I think the issue is that a certain level of subjectivity already exists - because there is no defined moment when a player is "beginning to take his stance".

[Vinsk]

10 minutes ago, arab_joe said:

think the issue is that a certain level of subjectivity already exists - because there is no defined moment when a player is "beginning to take his stance".

Maybe so. But it’s also clearly obvious when a player isn’t taking his stance. So, stay the hell away from the line. Period. It’s like when an idiot football player makes the decision not to catch the punt then proceeds to stay as near as possible causing a potential touched ball and loss of possession. Get the hell away objectively. It’s that simple.

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I stand corrected.  That makes sense (although it is a bit strange that the exception applies for a putt on the green but not for any other shot).

I think the issue is that a certain level of subjectivity already exists - because there is no defined moment when a player is "beginning to take his stance".

The Interpretations (10.2b(4)/1) actually say that there's no set procedure for determining when the player has begun to take his stance, but does give some guidelines and examples.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, arab_joe said:

I think the issue is that a certain level of subjectivity already exists - because there is no defined moment when a player is "beginning to take his stance".

As @DaveP043 noted, 10.2b(4)/1 provides the guidance.

On both the European AND PGA Tours, rules officials have been hammering the guys for weeks and weeks and weeks about this rule in particular.

[cutchemist42]

On mobile so cant post the tweets I saw, but are questioning why Denny McCarthy got penalized today while Rickie didnt on one of his shots.

[DeadMan]

Here's the one that got a penalty:

Here's the one that didn't:

 

[iacas]

Hmmm the Rickie one looks close. Don’t know how close he was to the ball, or where the line was. The caddie wasn’t paying attention so that’s in his favor.

They got both of those right from what I can see.

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Hmmm the Rickie one looks close. Don’t know how close he was to the ball, or where the line was. The caddie wasn’t paying attention so that’s in his favor.

They got both of those right from what I can see.

The second caddie didn't seem to be deliberately standing on the line. He wasn't aware of just where he was.

No arguing with the first.

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

The second caddie didn't seem to be deliberately standing on the line. He wasn't aware of just where he was.

No arguing with the first.

The second caddy looked like he saw a train coming! 😀

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

The second caddie didn't seem to be deliberately standing on the line. He wasn't aware of just where he was.

No arguing with the first.

Right. That’s what the “deliberately” part is there for. 🙂

[DaveP043]

On the Rickie one, I'd like to see a longer clip, but it does seem that the caddie may not have been intentionally standing on the line.  A longer video might change my perception of that, but I can accept the decision not to penalize him.  In the McCarthy one, the caddie is clearly standing exactly on the line while McCarthy makes several practice swings, and then moves before the player begins to take his actual stance at the ball itself.  So the question becomes an evaluation of whether McCarthy  "has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given" in which case "it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance."  I'd say this qualifies, so that penalty is appropriate.

I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green.  To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.

[dennyjones]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.

+1

[colin007]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green.  To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.

Agreed, that's pretty much bullshit.

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

On the Rickie one, I'd like to see a longer clip,

Here ya are:

 

[Missouri Swede]

In other news, Webb Simpson must have forgotten there are new rules about how to drop:

And gets a little on-course guidance:

And after instruction, comes up with this:

 

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green.  To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.

I disagree.

You'd have to ask the USGA/R&A what their reasons are, but maybe it's that on a putting green your feet don’t trample down the grass like can easily happen in the fairway, rough, waste areas or other areas of the course.

Once a player lines up off the putting green they could quickly back out and re-settle into the same spots.

The Rule is fine as written IMO.

[drmevo]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I disagree.

You'd have to ask the USGA/R&A what their reasons are, but maybe it's that on a putting green your feet don’t trample down the grass like can easily happen in the fairway, rough, waste areas or other areas of the course.

Once a player lines up off the putting green they could quickly back out and re-settle into the same spots.

The Rule is fine as written IMO.

I would disagree, I’ve played on many greens where you can see clear footprints for a couple of minutes after walking/standing on them. 

I’m also curious why practice strokes count for this...it’s almost by definition not your “actual” stance.