Putting with the Flagstick In? - New 2019 Rules

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

I think it will be interesting to see what the pros do starting in January—how many will want it pulled, how many will want it replaced, how their practice may change over time. And when it comes up, it will be interesting to see what the announcers say about it.

See below. I'll talk about both posts…

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's definitely going to slow down time. There are a lot of golfers who like the flagstick out. I know one who said it would bother him, and he quoted saying it feels like it makes the hole look smaller. I told him I would be that one guy who will request it to be put back in all the time. If you are giving me an advantage in league matches I will take it. 

Here's what I don't get about PGA Tour players.

They work so hard, scratch and claw, for a tenth of a shot here or there.

And yet they take the flagstick out on chips. They'll probably take them out on almost all putts except maybe tap-ins while their caddie is raking the bunker (and even then the fellow competitor's caddie will probably take it out for them).

Now, again, for most ten-footers, fine. Basically no difference. But a 25-footer? A slick downhill putt at Augusta? There are going to be plenty of times when players on the PGA Tour should leave the flagstick in the hole. They should learn to trust the data - they have on many things already - and that even if the flagstick appears to have kept a ball out of the hole, it probably didn't, or the few times it does is going to be more than made up for by the time it helps you keep the ball closer to the hole.

PGA Tour players aren't always the brightest.

[chspeed]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Here's what I don't get about PGA Tour players.

PGA Tour players aren't always the brightest.

I think you get it 100%.😁

[Missouri Swede]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

See below. I'll talk about both posts…

Here's what I don't get about PGA Tour players.

They work so hard, scratch and claw, for a tenth of a shot here or there.

And yet they take the flagstick out on chips. They'll probably take them out on almost all putts except maybe tap-ins while their caddie is raking the bunker (and even then the fellow competitor's caddie will probably take it out for them).

Now, again, for most ten-footers, fine. Basically no difference. But a 25-footer? A slick downhill putt at Augusta? There are going to be plenty of times when players on the PGA Tour should leave the flagstick in the hole. They should learn to trust the data - they have on many things already - and that even if the flagstick appears to have kept a ball out of the hole, it probably didn't, or the few times it does is going to be more than made up for by the time it helps you keep the ball closer to the hole.

PGA Tour players aren't always the brightest.

Yeah, but they can be good stupid monkeys, if they’re listening to the right guys.

[Double Mocha Man]

TV is gonna need to put microphones on the flagsticks so we can easily hear the "clang" when that 25 footer smacks the pin and goes in.

[ncates00]

I don’t think it really matters. Everyone will play by the same rules so what difference does it make? I like the option to leave in or out. I don’t really care either way really. When I play alone I usually leave it unless it’s a closer putt. Playing with friends we take it out though. 

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I don’t think it really matters. Everyone will play by the same rules so what difference does it make? I like the option to leave in or out. I don’t really care either way really. When I play alone I usually leave it unless it’s a closer putt. Playing with friends we take it out though. 

It matters. It's a benefit. If the ball hits the flagstick and bounces it out, almost in all cases the ball was traveling too fast to go in anyways. The flag acts as a dampener. 

Heck, Let's say you have identical 60 FT putts. You hit a great putt that ends up 3 FT from the hole. Let's say your opponent hits a bad putt, but gets lucky and it hits the flagstick. Let's say it ends up 1 Ft from the hole. Why should they get the advantage for hitting a bad putt? 

That isn't even a scenario where a bad putt would go in! This decision gives advantage to luck rather than skill. 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I don’t think it really matters. Everyone will play by the same rules so what difference does it make? I like the option to leave in or out. I don’t really care either way really. When I play alone I usually leave it unless it’s a closer putt. Playing with friends we take it out though. 

What Matt said.

[ncates00]

17 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It matters. It's a benefit. If the ball hits the flagstick and bounces it out, almost in all cases the ball was traveling too fast to go in anyways. The flag acts as a dampener. 

Heck, Let's say you have identical 60 FT putts. You hit a great putt that ends up 3 FT from the hole. Let's say your opponent hits a bad putt, but gets lucky and it hits the flagstick. Let's say it ends up 1 Ft from the hole. Why should they get the advantage for hitting a bad putt? 

That isn't even a scenario where a bad putt would go in! This decision gives advantage to luck rather than skill. 

Sure, I see that, but if everyone plays under the same rules--who cares?  I guess good putters care.  I guess if I was Phil or JDay I would be upset because I'm a good putter and the lesser putters MIGHT get a break.  But I liken it to everyone playing from the same size basketball goal with a backboard.  The backboard helps crazy shots from lesser shooters.  No one is saying we should get rid of the backboard though.

Edited December 24, 2018 by ncates00

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Sure, I see that, but if everyone plays under the same rules--who cares?  I guess good putters care.  I guess if I was Phil or JDay I would be upset because I'm a good putter and the lesser putters MIGHT get a break.  But I liken it to everyone playing from the same size basketball goal with a backboard.  The backboard helps crazy shots from lesser shooters.  No one is saying we should get rid of the backboard though.

Because it benefits LUCK and not skill. Golf is a game of skill. Is there some luck, sure, but in the end skill wins out a vast majority of the time. 

The backboard analogy isn't that good because no one cares if a bad shooter banks the ball off the backboard and it falls to the ground. I care if a bad putter hits a horrible putt and hits the flagstick only to be left with a tap in. In some cases this could stop the ball from rolling off the green. 

No matter what you say to try to defend your side, you are on the side of bull shit results versus actual skill. 

You rather play pool with allowing slop, versus calling your shot. You want a dumbed down version of golf. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by saevel25

[ncates00]

44 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You want a dumbed down version of golf. 

Not true, as I initially said, I don't think it matters.  It's the law of the land, so it REALLY doesn't matter now.  It's not my position.  I'm not defending it--I just said I don't think it really matters.  Sure there are some BS shots that will be rewarded, but that happens in other areas of golf and sport.  No one cares about the banked in crap basketball shot?  Please.  That was a weak attempt at a pretty good analogy.  You're supposing those points didn't count?  Or the banked miss?  The miss could've fallen straight to an offensive rebounder for a put back.  That's a big presumption you're making.  There have been plenty of buzzer beater lucky banked in shots that have won games and advanced teams in March Madness or NBA Finals.  Those mattered just as much as some putts will as well.  The strongest case you have is that it benefits poor putters and "levels the playing field" against good putters.  I'll give you that.  But you haven't adequately argued my relevant comparison to backboards in basketball.  And besides, as I said from the beginning-I don't think the flagstick rule matters.  It's the rule after all.

Edited December 24, 2018 by ncates00

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

Sure, I see that, but if everyone plays under the same rules--who cares?

If every putt is good inside of 10 feet, who cares, because everyone's playing under the same rules, right?

Point is: just because "everyone plays under the same rules" doesn't mean people don't get to care.

[ncates00]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

If every putt is good inside of 10 feet, who cares, because everyone's playing under the same rules, right?

Point is: just because "everyone plays under the same rules" doesn't mean people don't get to care.

Fair enough.

 

switching gears, Why did they change the rule? Is there a good reason for it- expressed or implied? Maybe they want to favor “offense” and making putts? 

Edited December 24, 2018 by ncates00

[saevel25]

16 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

t's the law of the land, so it REALLY doesn't matter now.  It's not my position.  I'm not defending it--I just said I don't think it really matters. 

That's like saying any dumb law doesn't matter because it's been made a law. There are countless examples of bad laws that needed to be revoked because they are BAD. Dumb rules kill a game. Every play a bad boardgames? I have. I love boardgames. Rules make the game. Bad rules make a bad game. This rule is a bad rule for golf. 

It would be like saying, everyone can travel now in basketball. So now, you took a once valued skill off ball handling out of the game. Does this make basketball better? From your point of view, you don't care because everyone has to play by that rule. In the end you just took a valued skill away from the game. 

This is taking a valued skill away from golf. It's devaluing putting. 

20 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

There have been plenty of buzzer beater lucky banked in shots that have won games and advanced teams in March Madness or NBA Finals.  Those mattered just as much as some putts will as well. 

Would you ever want to watch the Masters tournament were a guy hit's a horrible putt and ends up making a birdie on the last hole to win? What if that guy hits his ball to the top tier. Now he gets the benefit added to his bad approach shot because he now has a backstop to make a putt that might be extremely unmakable. 

I've been on a course were if you are on the wrong tier the putt is not makable. I should not get the benefit of having the pin as a backstop. It gives a value to a poor approach shot. Heck, I've putted the ball off the green because I hit a shot to the wrong tier. That is the proper punishment for me making a bad approach shot. 

1 minute ago, ncates00 said:

Is there a good reason for it- expresses or implied? Maybe they want to favor “offense” and making putts? 

There is no good reason. They claim it's to speed up the game, but it probably will not. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

switching gears, Why did they change the rule? Is there a good reason for it- expressed or implied? Maybe they want to favor “offense” and making putts? 

As Matt said, they claim it will speed up the game. I think the opposite is actually accurate: it'll slow the game down.

[phillyk]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

There is no good reason.

They just want to make the ballbuster at my course easier. All the cups sitting on the sides of slopes will be easier to make.

[saevel25]

Just now, phillyk said:

They just want to make the ballbuster at my course easier. All the cups sitting on the sides of slopes will be easier to make.

Keep the ball below the hole 😉

 

[Double Mocha Man]

18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That's like saying any dumb law doesn't matter because it's been made a law. There are countless examples of bad laws that needed to be revoked because they are BAD. Dumb rules kill a game. Every play a bad boardgames? I have. I love boardgames. Rules make the game. Bad rules make a bad game. This rule is a bad rule for golf. 

It would be like saying, everyone can travel now in basketball. So now, you took a once valued skill off ball handling out of the game. Does this make basketball better? From your point of view, you don't care because everyone has to play by that rule. In the end you just took a valued skill away from the game. 

This is taking a valued skill away from golf. It's devaluing putting. 

Would you ever want to watch the Masters tournament were a guy hit's a horrible putt and ends up making a birdie on the last hole to win? What if that guy hits his ball to the top tier. Now he gets the benefit added to his bad approach shot because he now has a backstop to make a putt that might be extremely unmakable. 

I've been on a course were if you are on the wrong tier the putt is not makable. I should not get the benefit of having the pin as a backstop. It gives a value to a poor approach shot. Heck, I've putted the ball off the green because I hit a shot to the wrong tier. That is the proper punishment for me making a bad approach shot. 

There is no good reason. They claim it's to speed up the game, but it probably will not. 

1.  You are right.  It probably won't speed up the game.

2.  I am smart enough to use the rule to my advantage.  And after I miss the putt I will carry my putter across the green, 5 steps without allowing the putter to touch the green, and slam dunk it into my bag.

14 minutes ago, phillyk said:

They just want to make the ballbuster at my course easier. All the cups sitting on the sides of slopes will be easier to make.

Phil, everything at Eaglemont is sidehill, uphill or downhill.  Not just the putts.  :)

[Hardspoon]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm shocked - stunned, really - that the USGA and R&A just seem to have assumed that there was "no advantage or disadvantage." This despite having a rule for decades (except briefly around 1960) that required you to take it out for shots played from the putting green. Despite Dave Pelz conducting research. Despite the common sense that it generally helps, and all that we know about capture speed and such.

 Floored. Stunned.

I have no idea what on earth the USGA/R&A were thinking.

I believe I've said this before on TST, but I think they knew.  They knew it'd be an advantage but they just didn't care...because they DO also think it will speed up the game (I'm skeptical).

I think their claims about it not being a significant advantage were a half-truth, to try to diffuse objection during the comment phase.