Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 875 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
Posted
30 minutes ago, Swooshgolf said:

I can only imagine that the USGA/R&A  did thorough testing to get their conclusion.

They did no testing.

I know this for a fact. They assumed that there was no advantage or disadvantage. They stated as much, and recent comments say the same thing: they did no actual testing.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
9 minutes ago, klineka said:

Why? What reason do you have to think that?

Well, they're an organization and thus would put thought into things that could be detrimental to many. I would think that there is a position that only does these type of test but I could be wrong.


  • Administrator
Posted
1 minute ago, Swooshgolf said:

Well, they're an organization and thus would put thought into things that could be detrimental to many. I would think that there is a position that only does these type of test but I could be wrong.

See my post above yours - I think you were writing your response and didn't notice my post.

They never tested it, even though they could have given someone $5k and 30 days to test it thoroughly.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 minutes ago, iacas said:

See my post above yours - I think you were writing your response and didn't notice my post.

They never tested it, even though they could have given someone $5k and 30 days to test it thoroughly.

I can't say I'm not surprised but I guess good thing is that everyone will be able to use this rule. Do you think many well-established putters will put this way? I don't see many doing this unless they start putting badly.


  • Administrator
Posted
15 minutes ago, Swooshgolf said:

I can't say I'm not surprised but I guess good thing is that everyone will be able to use this rule. Do you think many well-established putters will put this way? I don't see many doing this unless they start putting badly.

We have other topics for that; this one's largely about the data. My recommendations remain current here: https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in. While you're there visit this page and pick up a copy.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

this was a great study, one of the most thorough ive read yet

Ive been leaving the pin in for every single putt this year and FINALLY after 50+ rounds had one bounce out

the reason: it was a 20 footer, left to right breaker, and the pin was leaning 10-20 degrees to the left

i need to pay more attention to the lean now on, and take out if its leaning towards the way the ball would go in

Scott


  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

During my last two rounds I putted with the flag stick in on every putt and it did improve my confidence. I will need a larger sample size before I can say definitively if it helps me save strokes, but based on many studies that have been done it appears it should save strokes.  

The confidence gain came from being more confident about the speed of the putt when I could see the flag stick using my peripheral vision when my aim point was well outside of the hole (for instance on a downhill/side-hill breaking putt.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

As a guy who does play a fair share of rounds solo leaving the flag in will keep me moving. I will say the small sample size this year it has been a bit annoying when you are in a 4 some and some players want to keep it in some want it out. I would imagine this will ne figured out sooner rather than later. 

  :sunmountain: eco lite stand Bag
:tmade: Sim 2 Max driver
 :callaway: Mavrick 20 * hybrid
:tmade: M2 3HL                               :mizuno: JPX 923 5-gw                           

 Lazrus 52, 56 wedges

:scotty_cameron:
:true_linkswear:-Lux Hybrid, Lux Sport, Original 1.2

:clicgear:


Posted

I assume the rules formerly forbade leaving the flagstick in because it conveyed some sort of advantage to the player, so it’s not surprising to find this confirmed by empirical data.


Posted
On 2/15/2019 at 8:58 AM, scottyarcy said:

this was a great study, one of the most thorough ive read yet

Ive been leaving the pin in for every single putt this year and FINALLY after 50+ rounds had one bounce out

the reason: it was a 20 footer, left to right breaker, and the pin was leaning 10-20 degrees to the left

i need to pay more attention to the lean now on, and take out if its leaning towards the way the ball would go in

I've witnessed the exact same thing happen twice in my foursome.  The 1st time was because the wind was blowing the flag stick to the side and the ball bounced off the stick and stopped about 1 foot away. The 2nd time, the hole for the flag stick at the bottom of the cup was really worn out and loose and the ball did the same thing. We all agreed leaving the flag in was the best thing to do except in these types of situations.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2019 at 8:29 PM, easyjay39402 said:

I assume the rules formerly forbade leaving the flagstick in because it conveyed some sort of advantage to the player, so it’s not surprising to find this confirmed by empirical data.

I'm not sure it was ever really studied, but there was an impression that it could help.  Golf started as a match play game, and some of the earliest rules said that either side could have the flagstick removed.  So if I'm playing you, and I think the flagstick COULD help you, I can have the flagstick taken out before you hit your shot.  I can protect my own interests, and really nobody else is effected by my choice.  But in stroke play, the entire field's interests need to be protected by the rules, so the earliest stroke play rules required the flagstick to be removed, initially when you were within 20 yards.  Later versions required the flag to come out when you were on the putting green.  So its largely a tradition without any real proof.  Modern researchers are quantifying the statistics involved with the flagstick in or out. 

I should clarify, this is my interpretation, based on what I understand of the rules through the ages, and drawing my own conclusions as to why the rules changed in the ways that they did.  Check here for some rules history:

 

Edited by DaveP043
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
  • Informative 1

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

flag in certainly helped me in a recent club game over hit hard uphill to flat pin position and hit the pin square to sink the putt had the flag not been in would have run off the green 10yds+ easy saved me 2-3 shots 

 

Go Foxy Go


Posted

My mind has not adapted yet to the flag stick in. When left in I find I hit the putt a bit too firm. When out better distance control. Will work on getting this straightened out as the flag stick in speeds up play in my opinion. 

  :sunmountain: eco lite stand Bag
:tmade: Sim 2 Max driver
 :callaway: Mavrick 20 * hybrid
:tmade: M2 3HL                               :mizuno: JPX 923 5-gw                           

 Lazrus 52, 56 wedges

:scotty_cameron:
:true_linkswear:-Lux Hybrid, Lux Sport, Original 1.2

:clicgear:


  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

Let me first start by saying, that I believe the work that @iacas has done with the flagstick in the hole has convinced me his data is real.

This month in Golf Digest (I know.....) a Tom Mase, PH.D performed a study at the request of Golf Digest (he lost creditably with me when I saw he was a moo U grad).   I didn't see a sample size other than "All scenarios were tested in random rounds of 30 putts each." 

The 99.9967% solution:Based on probability and standard deviation calculations and PGA Tour statistics, the best tour players would strike the flagstick dead-center from 20 to 25 feet about 3.3 percent of the time.  if you assume the best pros wold rarely roll  their first putt nine feet past the hole-perhaps one in a thousand times-that would make leaving the flagstick in a benefit on only .0033 percent of all putts from 20 to 25 feet.   And that's for the best pros.  For a typical amateur, those percentages are much worse.

He does go on to say the with different sticks, the results were the same.  Talk of a wind advisory causing the flagstick to be biased was addressed.

His final point was:   This data argues against leaving the flagstick in.  One more reason: Retrieving putts made with the flagstick in also could lead to hole damage.   

 

 

My final thought.  It's amazing that statistics and be so useful and so deceiving.    

From the land of perpetual cloudiness.   I'm Denny

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, dennyjones said:

  It's amazing that statistics and be so useful and so deceiving.    

You know that 68.4% of statistics are made up..........  :-D

Remember when reading posts...…. Communication: 80% Body Language; 15% Tone & 5% Actual Words
We'd all be best selling authors if we could communicate in the written word as well as we would like.

:aimpoint:    :bushnell:    :sunmountain:   :ogio:   :titleist:
:mizuno:  Mizuno ST180 Driver
:ping:  Ping G400 fairway 3 
:cleveland:  Cleveland HB Launcher Iron set  4-PW  50/56/60 CBX Wedges
:callaway:  64 Calloway Lob Wedge
 :scotty_cameron:    Scotty Camron GOLO 3

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I just started playing again this season and it will be my first year playing and living at the "windy" Jersey Shore.  I played my first legitimate round on Wednesday and was paired with a pleasant golfer who asked if I planned on leaving the pin in.  Based on what I have read here and other writings I decided I would leave the pin in.  On the back nine I had a short par putt (not normal for me!) and left the pin in on about a 30 inch putt.  The ball was heading ring for the hole and instead of falling in it hit the pin and went sideways about 6 inches.  I looked at the hole and from the direction I putted the ball would not fit in the hole because the pin had been moved by the wind.  It was not howling at the time but a previous gust of wind had caused the the pin to lean.  I appreciate all the work done on the study described in this thread but in the future I will check the pin carefully and pull it if it is leaning towards the direction I am putting from.  

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, NJpatbee said:

I just started playing again this season and it will be my first year playing and living at the "windy" Jersey Shore.  I played my first legitimate round on Wednesday and was paired with a pleasant golfer who asked if I planned on leaving the pin in.  Based on what I have read here and other writings I decided I would leave the pin in.  On the back nine I had a short par putt (not normal for me!) and left the pin in on about a 30 inch putt.  The ball was heading ring for the hole and instead of falling in it hit the pin and went sideways about 6 inches.  I looked at the hole and from the direction I putted the ball would not fit in the hole because the pin had been moved by the wind.  It was not howling at the time but a previous gust of wind had caused the the pin to lean.  I appreciate all the work done on the study described in this thread but in the future I will check the pin carefully and pull it if it is leaning towards the direction I am putting from.  

You've learned a valuable lesson.   From the same thread...

 

Quote

If you want to putt with the flagstick in from short range, there are times it can help:

  • the more aggressive line
  • when the flagstick helps you aim
  • when the shadow of the flagstick helps you aim

That's about it, and if you take the more aggressive line, it looks like you don't really want to miss low, because there's a sliver of speed/off-centered-ness where the flagstick can hurt you.

I also don't recommend taking the more aggressive line. Make the hole bigger. Play a bit more break and make the hole bigger.

I've only recommended leaving the flagstick in from 25+ feet or so.

 

From the land of perpetual cloudiness.   I'm Denny

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 875 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.