Important Things No One Talks About

[boogielicious]

1 minute ago, snapfade said:

And that is the challenge we face in golf, too many variables. It just seems like IF there was some way for the mind to tell the body, " Swing the club exactly like you did it a second ago" someone would win a Nobel prize for science. Just something weird to think about. 

I would say that practice is the only way to really become consistently better in our swings. We are remarkable consistent even if our swings have a fault. The only way to train your self away from the swing fault is practicing properly. I just didn't pick up the guitar and play using the "Think Method" from The Music Man. I practiced, a lot and the correct way. I think instructors who refer to natural swings and such are really just trying to get the student to be able to play and have fun and not get them to the next level. I want to get to the next level.

 

 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

OTOH, you probably don't move your fork in as repeatable fashion as you think either because the small differences each time don't really matter.

I agree with this, though I’ll also add the difficulty of swinging a golf club at 90mph with precision is significantly higher than poking something with a fork.

2 hours ago, snapfade said:

It just seems like IF there was some way for the mind to tell the body, " Swing the club exactly like you did it a second ago"

 There is. You do it by learning how to swing the club the right way and build mind-muscle connection through repetition. There’s no shortcut to that. Even then, there are limits to human ability.

[snapfade]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

I agree with this, though I’ll also add the difficulty of swinging a golf club at 90mph with precision is significantly higher than poking something with a fork.

 There is. You do it by learning how to swing the club the right way and build mind-muscle connection through repetition. There’s no shortcut to that. Even then, there are limits to human ability.

That's it there really. I am a firm believer in regular work with an instructor and taking the time and practicing what he teaches you. Not just once a year but regularly. The  "magic pill" is the good instructor. Its not a new 500 dollar driver or a quick YouTube video. 

[TRUCKER]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Let me be clear here too. Go ahead and come at me. It’s all good. If you can resist the urge to be offended by disagreement, come at my opinions. Defend yours.

Ok. Here go's. Did someone teach you how to walk when you were a baby? Or, did you learn how to walk from natural learning. Imagine trying to teach someone how to walk. I mean really think about it. All the complex instructions you would have to tell a child, you wouldn't start walking until you were 5 or 6. There wasn't an instructor there telling you, "put your foot here, now curl your pinky toe down slightly for balance, no, not that much." Instead, somehow, you managed to learn how to walk from natural learning. Now, am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not. I'm sure your mom and dad held your hands and helped you learn how to walk, or held the bicycle to get you going, and then let you figure it out from there. Even with natural learning it takes practice, and lots of it. When you were learning to walk, that's all you did is practice learning to walk, and look at you now your a pro at walking with no, or very little, technical instruction.

[criley4way]

On 1/9/2020 at 12:09 PM, mighty said:

People always talk about swing plane, transition, rotation, legs, hips, posture etc. Not that I think they're not important, but it seems most instructions dont focus enough on small details that make or break the golf swing. I went from ball speed in the 110s to 140 mph with the driver just by fixing my right hand, right arm and left shoulder, all I did was let my right hand take more control, adjusted my finger positions, bent my right arm less and kept my left shoulder closer to my body. Do you guys have any small details or secrets that are seldom talked about and they work like magic?    

What is the Smash factor? If the changes made impact better I get it but that much of an increase in swing speed sounds unlikely.

[ChetlovesMer]

39 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Ok. Here go's. Did someone teach you how to walk when you were a baby? Or, did you learn how to walk from natural learning. Imagine trying to teach someone how to walk. I mean really think about it. All the complex instructions you would have to tell a child, you wouldn't start walking until you were 5 or 6. There wasn't an instructor there telling you, "put your foot here, now curl your pinky toe down slightly for balance, no, not that much." Instead, somehow, you managed to learn how to walk from natural learning. Now, am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not. I'm sure your mom and dad held your hands and helped you learn how to walk, or held the bicycle to get you going, and then let you figure it out from there. Even with natural learning it takes practice, and lots of it. When you were learning to walk, that's all you did is practice learning to walk, and look at you now your a pro at walking with no, or very little, technical instruction.

Oh my goodness, TRUCKER, I hope you are kidding. 

In one way you are right. If you had no instruction at all and just "learned on your own to hit a golf ball" you would certainly be able to. So would I. So would everyone. And that is exactly what most people do. That is also why most people never break 100.

I learned golf on my own and played at a 28 handicap. (I'm sure others can learn on their own and play to single digits or maybe even better. Some people are going to have more natural gifts than others.) My current golf coach has got me down to a single digit. We have a plan to get even lower. Could I have improved this much without a golf coach? … Maybe, but I'm hear to tell you it would have been a lot more painful and taken a lot longer. 

I can shoot a basketball. I can make baskets. Stephen Curry can also shoot a basketball and make baskets. He's infinitely better at it than I am. He works with a team of coaches. He has more natural talent AND better coaching. If, Stephen Curry at his skill level in basketball still accepts help, why wouldn't I accept help at my skill level in golf? 

Yes, you can learn any sport on your own..... BUT WHY WOULD YOU? 

Why not make life easier? Why not get better faster? Only a fool is too proud to accept help. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by ChetlovesMer

[TRUCKER]

32 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Oh my goodness, TRUCKER, I hope you are kidding. 

In one way you are right. If you had no instruction at all and just "learned on your own to hit a golf ball" you would certainly be able to. So would I. So would everyone. And that is exactly what most people do. That is also why most people never break 100.

I learned golf on my own and played at a 28 handicap. (I'm sure others can learn on their own and play to single digits or maybe even better. Some people are going to have more natural gifts than others.) My current golf coach has got me down to a single digit. We have a plan to get even lower. Could I have improved this much without a golf coach? … Maybe, but I'm hear to tell you it would have been a lot more painful and taken a lot longer. 

I can shoot a basketball. I can make baskets. Stephen Curry can also shoot a basketball and make baskets. He's infinitely better at it than I am. He works with a team of coaches. He has more natural talent AND better coaching. If, Stephen Curry at his skill level in basketball still accepts help, why wouldn't I accept help at my skill level in golf? 

Yes, you can learn any sport on your own..... BUT WHY WOULD YOU? 

Why not make life easier? Why not get better faster? Only a fool is too proud to accept help. 

So who is the instructor that taught you how to walk? Your parents must have spent a fortune paying for all those walking lessons.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

So who is the instructor that taught you how to walk? Your parents must have spent a fortune paying for all those walking lessons.

It doesn't seem as if you read anything that @ChetlovesMer wrote, or at least you didn't respond to a word of it.  Yes, we can learn simple motions on our own.  In most cases, we're not going to compete in those simple motions, we're not going to try to walk as fast as we possibly can, or as straight, or whatever.  Walking isn't generally a competitive sport, we don't care how well we do it, as long as we don't fall on our faces.  But there ARE people who walk competitively, do you somehow imagine that they can get to that level without specific instruction in mechanics?  Similarly, I can learn to shoot baskets, or ice skate, or bowl, I can learn to do lots of things completely on my own.  In each case, I'll be able to progress to a certain point based on my own natural talent(or lack of talent).  But if I want to improve most quickly, or to the maximum possible extent, instruction will become valuable, at minimum, or maybe even essential.

[phillyk]

 

1 hour ago, TRUCKER said:

Ok. Here go's. Did someone teach you how to walk when you were a baby? Or, did you learn how to walk from natural learning. Imagine trying to teach someone how to walk. I mean really think about it. All the complex instructions you would have to tell a child, you wouldn't start walking until you were 5 or 6. There wasn't an instructor there telling you, "put your foot here, now curl your pinky toe down slightly for balance, no, not that much." Instead, somehow, you managed to learn how to walk from natural learning. Now, am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not. I'm sure your mom and dad held your hands and helped you learn how to walk, or held the bicycle to get you going, and then let you figure it out from there. Even with natural learning it takes practice, and lots of it. When you were learning to walk, that's all you did is practice learning to walk, and look at you now your a pro at walking with no, or very little, technical instruction.

Walking is a natural movement evolved over time. Golf is not a natural movement, it is a learned movement.   A human would walk without seeing anybody ever do it first, because it makes moving around faster and easier than crawling.  What force in nature is there for someone to swing a club at a ball to make it go 100yds in a specific direction?  Golf is a learned movement, and instruction makes that learning faster, most of the time.

[ChetlovesMer]

22 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

So who is the instructor that taught you how to walk? Your parents must have spent a fortune paying for all those walking lessons.

Oh my gosh, you make me giggle.

What @DaveP043 said.

[TRUCKER]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

It doesn't seem as if you read anything that @ChetlovesMer wrote, or at least you didn't respond to a word of it.  Yes, we can learn simple motions on our own.  In most cases, we're not going to compete in those simple motions, we're not going to try to walk as fast as we possibly can, or as straight, or whatever.  Walking isn't generally a competitive sport, we don't care how well we do it, as long as we don't fall on our faces.  But there ARE people who walk competitively, do you somehow imagine that they can get to that level without specific instruction in mechanics?  Similarly, I can learn to shoot baskets, or ice skate, or bowl, I can learn to do lots of things completely on my own.  In each case, I'll be able to progress to a certain point based on my own natural talent(or lack of talent).  But if I want to improve most quickly, or to the maximum possible extent, instruction will become valuable, at minimum, or maybe even essential.

Doesn't seem you or chetlovesmer read anything I wrote, or at least neither of you responded to a word of it. Remember this part, "Now am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not." See, there's an example of you blatantly ignoring something I wrote. Give me an example to back up what you've accused me of.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, TRUCKER said:

Ok. Here go's. Did someone teach you how to walk when you were a baby? Or, did you learn how to walk from natural learning. Imagine trying to teach someone how to walk. I mean really think about it. All the complex instructions you would have to tell a child, you wouldn't start walking until you were 5 or 6. There wasn't an instructor there telling you, "put your foot here, now curl your pinky toe down slightly for balance, no, not that much." Instead, somehow, you managed to learn how to walk from natural learning. Now, am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not. I'm sure your mom and dad held your hands and helped you learn how to walk, or held the bicycle to get you going, and then let you figure it out from there. Even with natural learning it takes practice, and lots of it. When you were learning to walk, that's all you did is practice learning to walk, and look at you now your a pro at walking with no, or very little, technical instruction.

 

2 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Doesn't seem you or chetlovesmer read anything I wrote, or at least neither of you responded to a word of it. Remember this part, "Now am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not." See, there's an example of you blatantly ignoring something I wrote. Give me an example to back up what you've accused me of.

Okay, fair enough I guess?
So, what ARE you saying? It seems like you are saying that you should get little to know coaching on Golf. Just practice golf as much as you practice walking?  … Is that what you are saying?

If it is, my response is simple. I don't have that kind of time.

I can get better at golf faster with a golf coach. I only know this because I did it. I was a 28 hcp (granted, old hcp system) working alone. I got to a 7 with coaching. I suppose I have to grant you that if I practice golf as often as I practice walking, I would get really good at it all on my own. 

Is that your point? 
I'm seriously asking. 

[TRUCKER]

That's exactly my point. Nothing more. Lee Trevino, Bubba Watson, and Moe Norman are examples of this. Also of course you don't have time, you're an adult now. That's why I used the learning how to walk scenario. As a child you had 24/7 to practice walking. Even when you fell your body learned something.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 minute ago, TRUCKER said:

That's exactly my point. Nothing more. Lee Trevino, Bubba Watson, and Moe Norman are examples of this. Also of course you don't have time, you're an adult now. That's why I used the learning how to walk scenario. As a child you had 24/7 to practice walking. Even when you fell your body learned something.

Okay, that's a fine point then. I agree. … If I did nothing but practice golf I would get better at it. 

 

[TRUCKER]

Not just better, you'd become great at it. IMO.

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Doesn't seem you or chetlovesmer read anything I wrote, or at least neither of you responded to a word of it. Remember this part, "Now am I denouncing all technical instruction? Of course not." See, there's an example of you blatantly ignoring something I wrote. Give me an example to back up what you've accused me of.

You used "learning to walk" as an example of something we can do effectively without instruction.  I read what you wrote, and used "learning to walk competitively" as an extension of that, something that requires instruction to succeed at. I specifically responded to your example, and provided a couple of additional motions that can be learned independently, but that require instruction to become truly successful at. 

Similarly, there's a difference between "learning to hit a golf ball" and "learning to play golf consistently well".  Some people with innate talent may be able to learn to play golf well without any instruction.  Trevino, Watson, Norman, sure, but those people are the exceptions.  Most humans will run into a pretty low ceiling when left to solve the golf swing on their own.  Practice will help, but without instruction the ceiling will remain much lower than it needs to be.

[Vinsk]

28 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Not just better, you'd become great at it. IMO.

Only if done properly. I practice way more than I play. I probably practice more than most people on this site and I’m not any good. I’ve been helped with  instructors for sure but golf is hard. I didn’t need any instruction on walking. The comparison of two totally different skills isn’t convincing of anything. 

[ChetlovesMer]

31 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You used "learning to walk" as an example of something we can do effectively without instruction.  I read what you wrote, and used "learning to walk competitively" as an extension of that, something that requires instruction to succeed at. I specifically responded to your example, and provided a couple of additional motions that can be learned independently, but that require instruction to become truly successful at. 

Similarly, there's a difference between "learning to hit a golf ball" and "learning to play golf consistently well".  Some people with innate talent may be able to learn to play golf well without any instruction.  Trevino, Watson, Norman, sure, but those people are the exceptions.  Most humans will run into a pretty low ceiling when left to solve the golf swing on their own.  Practice will help, but without instruction the ceiling will remain much lower than it needs to be.

@DaveP043

As you know this comes up on the forum often. People often complain that golf instruction is too technical. I’m not sure why that complaint always comes up, but it does.

First of all the argument is made that you can learn to golf on your own. Just do what feels right. Which is ridiculous for a guy like me. I’m not particularly coordinated. Ask my wife. Learning to golf is a lot more like learning to dance than like learning to walk. Some people WILL be naturally better at it than others. But EVERYONE will benefit from good instruction. Some more than others… like me for example. I’m not naturally good at either golf or dancing.

Eventually it always comes back to “Lee Trevino, Bubba Watson, and Moe Norman learned to golf without taking lessons! … See! Lessons are bad!” 

Nobody remembers Lee Trevino stating over and over again, that he wishes he had gotten good instruction. He feels he would have been a lot better a lot sooner if he had. Similarly, when his son was ready to take up the game, Lee connected him with a swing coach right away. Nobody remembers Moe Norman telling people he learned to swing a golf club from his father, who would often tell him when his swing was getting out of whack. Nobody remembers Bubba Watson saying that he’d spend literally 8 house a day, every day as small child working out how to hit a golf ball. Nor does anyone remember Bubba hiring a swing coach when his game started to fall apart. 

Besides for every 1 Bubba Watson in the world; A guy who figured it out on his own. There are literally 20 million golfers who can’t break 100, but insist they “Have never had a lesson.”

 

I worked on my game alone for hours and hours every week when I was first married. We were DINKS (Double Income No Kids). My game improved a bit. I work on my game now at most 3 hours per week, often a lot less. I just work on the things my golf coach has helped me identify as issues. I’m a better golfer now than I ever was before.
 

I don’t understand it. I agree you can get good… maybe even great at golf working on your own. But in no other sport do we refuse instruction. Why make is so hard on yourself? Get good coaching in any sport. You get better faster. Why is there so much shame in accepting help?