LIV Golf Now Closed?

[snapfade]

[jbishop15]

12 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I mean we can choose to not fill up our gas tanks, but for lack of options we do. When he had the option he took the high road and I applaud him for it as on face value he left money on the table back then too. But now if it is pro golf/no pro golf, it's a bit unreasonable to think he will walk away. I wouldn't.  

I think a normal person without tremendous wealth filling up their gas tank is different than the stuff with Rory. I'm not saying he should walk away, either -- I'm not the person who positioned themselves as a bulwark against blood money and then shrugged my shoulders.

To be clear, I'm not asking for Rory to be castigated. I am just disappointed that a person who seemed to have the right idea about all this was either concerned about the wrong things (the future of pro golf) or is can't admit that he doesn't want to fight anymore. I think, more than anything, Rory is tired of being in the spotlight and taking all the arrows. It's clearly affecting him as a golfer. 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

His only real choices are to go along or retire.

I agree but his choice gets a little more involved.  One thing I am thinking is more like a normal business merger.  First, each PGA TOUR Pro is thier own "business" but has some resemblece of being and "Employee" of the PGA TOUR (I know they are not acutally employees)   Some made a business decision to take the risk to thier reputations & sponsorships to move to LIV while some chose to stay with the PGA TOUR and taking the risk of not getting that hugh payout.  Rory's risk (and others) was missing out on the payout and having PIF/LIV succeeed in the end.   Now we are seeing a "Merger" and some are saying the LIV players should be fined before letting them back on the PGA TOUR.  I doubt that will happen.  Thier "Employer" is part of the merger and I do not see that happening.  What I do see is similar to "Retention Packages" that other businesses offer employees to stop them from jumping ship during a merger.  The top PGA TOUR players that stayed will get a nice "Retention Package" and those down the line will get a lesser package and those at the bottom will get nothing.  It will be interesting to see what Tiger gets.  As much as we all want to see him compete week after week his body is not alowing that but having him algined with golf is valuable, even if he is not playing.

Of course, often these deals are under non-disclosure so we may never know facts.

The question for Rory is, does he "Accept" a retention package or does he walk.

 

[TourSpoon]

10 minutes ago, StuM said:

The question for Rory is, does he "Accept" a retention package or does he walk.

I don't see him walking away. 

There is another piece to the puzzle...the PGAT retirement package.  Did the LIV guys get wiped clean when they left? 

[guitarget]

I love this website.☺️

The other day I logged in my email, and had a torrent of notifications from TST.  Uh-oh, what happened?  My thanks to everyone here who have answered every single one of my questions about this very strange situation.👍👏

 

Don Ward

[StuM]

22 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

I don't see him walking away. 

There is another piece to the puzzle...the PGAT retirement package.  Did the LIV guys get wiped clean when they left? 

I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the retirement plan but my understanding is a portion of thier winnings get set aside.  This to me sounds like a "Deferred Compensation Plan" and typically those are 100% vested since the money was yours in the first place.  I do not see it as a "Pension" thay may have "Vesting" or other requirments.  My guess is they did not get wiped out.

[chspeed]

2 hours ago, mdl said:

Team with Tiger to take all the non LIV players (assume they stay since they’ve shown they just follow the most guaranteed money) and start their own tour?

While farfetched, this idea is not the craziest thing I've heard. They would need to convince many senior PGAT officials, a vast majority of PGAT players, big sponsors, and a massive group of investors. Most likely will never happen, but you never know!

[Rick Graham]

22 hours ago, Elmer said:

Not only is he a professional golfer, but a professional golfer who volunteered to do a TV interview.
If you are putting yourself in that position to be interviewed and asked about 9/11, jamal khashoggi and the money you took from the SA, you cant just say "hey I am just a golfer".

What kind of questions did he expect on a news network, questions about chipping out of a bunker?

And yes I would rather hear " I want to be filthy stinkin rich I don't give a crap where the money came from"

Instead of "I am sorry for the loss of those on 9/11, but SA is working real hard to bring us all together by growing the game of golf, but then again I am just a golfer so what do I know"

If what you say is true, everyone thst puts gas in their car or uses plastics are contributing to saudi blood money, these guys just want to play golf period, and they got offered alot of money to do so, i dont see a problem

[Vinsk]

23 minutes ago, Rick Graham said:

If what you say is true, everyone thst puts gas in their car or uses plastics are contributing to saudi blood money, these guys just want to play golf period, and they got offered alot of money to do so, i dont see a problem

FFS Rick…it’s been well covered how that’s not the same thing at all. In Global markets everyone has to do business with governments/institutions they aren’t fond of and even despise. It’s a matter of pure survival to have gas/plastics. That hardly compares to wealthy athletes taking a direct paycheck from said government/institution to simply make more money for their already extravagant lifestyles.

[Elmer]

31 minutes ago, Rick Graham said:

If what you say is true, everyone thst puts gas in their car or uses plastics are contributing to saudi blood money, these guys just want to play golf period, and they got offered alot of money to do so, i dont see a problem

Most of us  (myself included) have no choice but to use gas power vehicles.  I have done my best to avoid plastic as well.
But oil and gasoline I am stuck with for likely the rest of my life.
However if I go to an interview I am not going to say " I am just hack golfer on the weekend, so what do I know". I would gladly provide my opinion on 9/11,  jamal khashoggi and SA's involvement. 
But the difference is, I am not a public figure, so no one is asking me.
 

If professional golfers "just wanted to play golf period" they should have stayed at their country club and not gone pro. Interviews are part of being a pro athlete and pro golfer.
The LIV golfers chose to take the money and have to know the questions that come with that.
To play dumb on their part is just disingenuous. 

Imagine if you will any golfer on the tour shows up to the first tee sporting a Nazi swastikas on their hat because they are sponsored by Nazis.
when they do a post round interview and then subsequent interviews, you would expect a question about taking that sponsorship money.
When that golfer responds with "hey I am just a golfer" and "I am just looking to grow the game", is that a legitimate answer?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Elmer

[DeadMan]

PGA Tour board member Jimmy Dunne explains why he got involved in LIV Golf deal

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Jimmy Dunne reached out to governor of Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund via WhatsApp...

This is something. Wow. 

[colin007]

2 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

To be clear, I'm not asking for Rory to be castigated. I am just disappointed that a person who seemed to have the right idea about all this was either concerned about the wrong things (the future of pro golf) or is can't admit that he doesn't want to fight anymore. 

So what are you looking for him to do? What would you do in his place?

[jbishop15]

10 minutes ago, colin007 said:

So what are you looking for him to do? What would you do in his place?

I'm not looking for him to do anything. I'm disappointed that thing he cared about more was the future of professional golf and not that evil human rights abusers would soon be cutting him checks to sports wash their well-earned reputation as despots.

I don't know what I would do in his place. There aren't a lot of good options. Plenty of ones, though, that are consistent with the man he presented himself to be. I don't think Rory is a bad person. Just not who I thought he was.

I think, if I were in his shoes, I would try to kick the PGA Tour to the curb and start a new Tour. I don't think that will happen, nor am I sure it is feasible. But I think current leadership has failed in creating an interesting entertainment product and has also failed to uphold the morals they say they care about. 

[dsc123]

I'd be really surrpised if any of this goes through.  I think this makes a lot of good points:  

The Saudi-PGA Golf Deal Isn't Going to Happen

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The merger or alliance between the PGA and the Saudi's LIV Golf is comically illegal, and it will not happen in its current form. Something about this deal smells off.

 

[turtleback]

5 hours ago, mdl said:

Team with Tiger to take all the non LIV players (assume they stay since they’ve shown they just follow the most guaranteed money) and start their own tour?

As attractive as this would be to me, this would be a vast, and vastly expensive undertaking.  And there would still be an issue of eligibility for majors.

4 hours ago, StuM said:

The question for Rory is, does he "Accept" a retention package or does he walk.

 

This is where the rubber meets the road.  The only path where Rory can keep his self respect and still play, IMO, would be to refuse the retention package, because the money he would receive from the retention package would still be what was called blood money, even if it's been laundered through the PGAT.  Then the 'money above all else' crowd will call him stupid for leaving all that money on the table.  If he refuses a retention package he can then rightly say that he is only taking money that he earned by playing, not blood money just given to him.

But what about a guy like Ricki Fowler who reportedly turned down $75 million and stayed loyal to the PGAT but whose game has fallen off.  Will a guy like that even be offered a retention package?

And there is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Tiger.  I will be incredibly disappointed in him if he takes a retention package.  As I am already incredibly disappointed in Nicklaus for coming out in support of this, IMO, travesty.

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

I'd be really surrpised if any of this goes through.  I think this makes a lot of good points:  

The Saudi-PGA Golf Deal Isn't Going to Happen

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The merger or alliance between the PGA and the Saudi's LIV Golf is comically illegal, and it will not happen in its current form. Something about this deal smells off.

 

He makes a lot of good points, but IANAL, so what do I know.  I also think there may be some class action lawsuits from disaffected players.

Edited June 8, 2023 by turtleback

[StuM]

2 minutes ago, turtleback said:

This is where the rubber meets the road.  The only path where Rory can keep his self respect and still play, IMO, would be to refuse the retention package, because the money he would receive from the retention package would still be what was called blood money, even if it's been laundered through the PGAT.  Then the 'money above all else' crowd will call him stupid for leaving all that money on the table.  If he refuses a retention package he can then rightly say that he is only taking money that he earned by playing, not blood money just given to him.

That would be a good "Face Saving Move" and he can afford it, but dang, that would be a tough position to be put in.  Another option he could do is take the money then donate it to a non-profit that supports familes of 9-11 or pushes for women's rights in Saudi Arabia or something of that sort.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Ask Tiger Woods. The man should have retired after that car accident. He thinks he still has fuel in the tank and can make a comeback.

This might be as good a reason as any to retire and play the occasional major.

7 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

I seriously doubt this will be the case, however he did have a predictive tweet about this that was on the money (pun intended). But so did a lot of people that knew that money would win.

It wasn't a tweet, because it was from when he was (rightfully) banned from Twitter. 😛 It was on Truth Social or something.

7 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

He will keep playing imo. This doesn't reflect poorly on him, its on Monahan. Rory will have some awkward moments but he will get through them.

I agree.

7 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

What the sad part is that Monahan invoked the 911 families moral argument when this was always about money and power.

Really dumb to have done that, yeah.

On 6/7/2023 at 5:19 PM, iacas said:

I do as well, but at the same time if you are Rory, what are your options? Retire? I mean, he could. But it’s basically retire, playing only the majors, or continue to play golf.

7 hours ago, turtleback said:

His only real choices are to go along or retire.

Uhhh, yep.

5 hours ago, StuM said:

Now we are seeing a "Merger" and some are saying the LIV players should be fined before letting them back on the PGA TOUR.  I doubt that will happen.

I'd take that bet. They'll likely be fined somewhat. European Tour players were fined.

5 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

There is another piece to the puzzle...the PGAT retirement package.  Did the LIV guys get wiped clean when they left? 

No. That would have been highly illegal.

4 hours ago, StuM said:

I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the retirement plan but my understanding is a portion of thier winnings get set aside.

Nope. They're given all of their prize money. It's still counted as "deferred income" but they're not taking a cut out of what they earn now and giving it back to them later. (Some of the FedExCup money is more traditional deferred income: they don't get $15M or whatever now.)

You can look it up, but basically:

CUTS-MADE AND BONUS PLANS
Under the PGA Tour's cuts-made plan, a player must make 75 cuts to be 50-percent vested and is fully vested at 150 cuts, according to multiple players. According to the PGA Tour, in 2014-'15, players received $4,500 for each of the first 15 cuts made—$67,500—and $9,000 for each cut made above 15, in addition to prize money. The plan is funded by a variety of revenue streams, including advertising revenue, investments, corporate partners, TPC profits, digital revenue and TV money.

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

The only path where Rory can keep his self respect and still play, IMO, would be to refuse the retention package, because the money he would receive from the retention package would still be what was called blood money, even if it's been laundered through the PGAT.

Whoa whoa whoa. No to that.

Rory's self-respect is his to determine. You get to have your opinion of Rory, but you don't get to tell him (or us) what his opinion of himself is. 😄 

[hunterdog]

What I have not heard much of is what does it mean for golf fans like me. I’ve played golf most of my life, public and private, and, other than work and family, golf has been my primary avocation. I have enjoyed watching televised golf, again, for most of my life (though I don’t watch every weekend). Personally, I think the Saudis are evil; prime sponsors of 9/11 and horrible human rights. While I don’t know all the details and don’t think anyone does, what is known that the Saudis have, at a minimum, a huge roll in the future of professional golf. So, is it just expected that televised golf fans like myself will simply overlook the Saudis involvement or do we quit watching televised golf? Is it suck it up or is it quit the game or is there a middle ground?
 

What I am convinced of is that Dunne, Monahan, Yassir, and Norman are out and out liars. So I don’t see any guidance there.