Is Distance Really That Important for Amateurs?

[Phil McGleno]

Here's a good quote for thread. Sorry if it's a repeat. BROADIE: If you hit it longer, and you don’t hit too many more wild shots, you can gain a lot versus laying back and hitting more fairways, but there are a lot of variables you have to take into account. Hitting it into the water, or out of bounds, if you do that a couple more times in 100 shots than somebody else, that would negate the advantage of the few extra yards of driving distance. [URL=http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/03/03/foley--broadie-present-at-mit-stats-conference.html]http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/03/03/foley--broadie-present-at-mit-stats-conference.html[/URL]

Duh. The guy hitting it 195 off the tee is not going to be shooting in the 70s though, and the guy hitting it 195 off the tee is also the one more likely hitting it in water or OB. Double wammy.

[rkim291968]

Here's a good quote for thread. Sorry if it's a repeat.

BROADIE: If you hit it longer, and you don’t hit too many more wild shots, you can gain a lot versus laying back and hitting more fairways, but there are a lot of variables you have to take into account. Hitting it into the water, or out of bounds, if you do that a couple more times in 100 shots than somebody else, that would negate the advantage of the few extra yards of driving distance.

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/03/03/foley--broadie-present-at-mit-stats-conference.html

That may explain why I am scoring worse with a new driver that I am hitting 10 - 15 yards longer with.  With the new driver, I seem to reach more OB areas ... .

[turtleback]

I'm with you. As a recreational golfer whose goal is to have fun (and not embarrass myself) distance is of almost no interest to me.

For most par fives, I can hit a forgiving 3 wood (K15) off the tee, and then two very forgiving 5-hybrids. I still might have a little pitch on to the green, but I'm in the fairway the whole way, and no risk of disaster.

Your strategy is fine if your goal is just to have fun rather than score your best.  I think the question in the thread is aimed at those wishing to optimize their score.

[Dave2512]

Doesn't make sense to me. If scoring better is the goal then more distance should be a no brainer. Sure you can inch around the course trying to avoid everything but it severely limits how well you can score. It's not going to work on par 4's and there are more of those, no way to sneak up on a hole that requires two good shots. You will spend your life trying to get up and down.

[Dave2512]

Funny watching Morning Drive today how many times this came up. As the conversation developed it was clear the MD folks undervalued distance and over all ball striking. Gary predicted someone would win in 2015, can't remember who, because the guy was a great putter. Then a stat was mentioned the pro they were talking about was 134th in GIR and 150 something in total driving. At the end of the segment the discussion turned to the OWGR top 5 and all agreed they were sketchy putters. They didn't mention it but the top 5 are all great ball strikers and long.

[RFKFREAK]

Funny watching Morning Drive today how many times this came up. As the conversation developed it was clear the MD folks undervalued distance and over all ball striking. Gary predicted someone would win in 2015, can't remember who, because the guy was a great putter. Then a stat was mentioned the pro they were talking about was 134th in GIR and 150 something in total driving. At the end of the segment the discussion turned to the OWGR top 5 and all agreed they were sketchy putters. They didn't mention it but the top 5 are all great ball strikers and long.

Oh, man, didn't realize the folks on MD were into comedy.

[Lihu]

Funny watching Morning Drive today how many times this came up. As the conversation developed it was clear the MD folks undervalued distance and over all ball striking. Gary predicted someone would win in 2015, can't remember who, because the guy was a great putter. Then a stat was mentioned the pro they were talking about was 134th in GIR and 150 something in total driving. At the end of the segment the discussion turned to the OWGR top 5 and all agreed they were sketchy putters. They didn't mention it but the top 5 are all great ball strikers and long.

Funny that they think someone ranked over 100th could replace one of the top 5, and that the top 5 are not going to be the top 5 next year?

Back on topic, I'm sure my added distance is going to improve my scores in the future.

[Dave2512]

Interesting Bubba stats, he's obviously long so I hope not off topic.

He is ranked 166th in GIR at 66.7% but ranked 1st in birdie average and ranked 1st par 5 birdie or better at 81.25%. His par 5 average is 4.13.

[mvmac]

Yes, this thread is about amateurs so the PGA Tour talk is off topic.

[onthehunt526]

Distance is important to an extent for amateurs, but isn't there such a thing as Adequate Distance ... There are golfers I hit it farther than that shoot around the same score or better than I do, The same is true for golfers who hit it farther than I do... and I score the same or better than I do... For example, I average around 265 or so with little to no wind at 1400 ft above sea level at 70° F... We'll call me golfer B... Golfer A: Average drive carry and roll: 230 yards Golfer B: is me... Golfer C: Long hitter average drive 290 yards We all play the same 500-yard, par 5 hole, under what we will calm normal June Ithaca conditions(northwest wind, 8-10 mph, 72° F, under partly cloudy skies.), Fairway Bunker on left 240 to carry, tight hole with trees on both sides, and a diagonal ditch running about 60 yards short of the green, one greenside bunker on right, green slopes toward you and by June faster than hell, pin is middle right... All three of us hit our average distance drives into the fairway... Golfer A: 270 from the center, 220 to carry the ditch... this golfer will probably take either a lofted hybrid or a mid-iron and lay-up short of the ditch... say he hits an average distance 6-iron and leaves himself 100 yards, because he is a good short iron/wedge player... I have 235 to the middle, and 185 to carry the ditch, I can probably take a 4-wood and reach the green... so I hit the 4-wood solid, but I block it in the bunker, which isn't a terrible miss because, after a lot of hard work, I'm a good bunker player... Player C: Only has 210 to the middle and 160 to carry the ditch, Hits a 4-iron in the left center of the green, past pin high 30 feet away... Player A: Hits a great wedge from 100 yards to 8 feet or so... I hit my bunker shot to about 6 feet... Player C: races his first putt 8 feet by, because he forgot to factor in how fast the greens were... Player A: Hits a good putt, but just misses on the high side, and taps in for a par... I hit a perfect putt on-line and it lips out because I gave it just a hair too much speed... and tap in for a 5... Player C: is a little bold with his comebacker and hits it three feet by... but makes the next one for a five... All three golfers made par, in three totally different ways, one with good wedge play, one by knowing their strengths, and one because we'll he struggles with putting... The moral of the story is distance is all well and good, but the other parts of your game can make up for your lack of distance... A note to the person who said a 190-yard driver can't shoot in the 70s for average, that's not true at all, I know an older gentleman at the course who from the men's tees, hitting it maybe 200 yards these days tops, is a scratch player, he has the best Damn short game I have ever seen though

[RFKFREAK]

It's painfully obvious when someone hasn't actually read though the thread. One of the biggest signs is when they give singular situation examples or anecdotal evidence.

[Osmond]

It's painfully obvious when someone hasn't actually read though the thread. One of the biggest signs is when they give singular situation examples or anecdotal evidence.

This. As if it is, on average, about the same whether you're 100y away, in the bunker or on the green :D I think I know which player I'd put my money on.

[billchao]

All three golfers made par, in three totally different ways, one with good wedge play, one by knowing their strengths, and one because we'll he struggles with putting...

The moral of the story is distance is all well and good, but the other parts of your game can make up for your lack of distance...

It was an anecdote, but I'll address it anyway.

Player C still has the advantage. He seems to have a glaring weakness, but that's this thread:

Why does he have the advantage? Because putting is easier than hitting both a greenside bunker shot and a 100 yard wedge. If the three of you played those exact shots, hundreds of times, you're going to find that Player C's scoring average will be lower. Even if he were the world's worst putter, it wouldn't take that much work to improve that skill, compared to the other two.

That's what this thread is about: scoring averages, not individual events. In this particular instance, all three players carded the same score, but do this hundreds of times. How many shots will Player A stick inside 8 feet (Hint: Not as many as you think )? How often can Player B get up and down from the greenside bunker (Again, not that often )? All players can reasonably make par from their positions, but Player C is the one who is most likely to make birdie (and the occasional eagle).

If you had to make the lowest score possible, which approach shot would you pick?

Weird things can happen during individual events that aren't representative of typical results. I once saw a player skull his approach shot straight towards a pond. The ball skipped twice on the water, hopped up over the bank, and rolled onto the green. Nobody would say that hitting a wormburner directly at a pond is the best way to get a GIR, and the fact that it happened does not strengthen the argument for doing so.

And besides, Player B has a distance advantage, too. He can reach a 500 yard par 5 in two.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by onthehunt526

All three golfers made par, in three totally different ways, one with good wedge play, one by knowing their strengths, and one because we'll he struggles with putting...

The moral of the story is distance is all well and good, but the other parts of your game can make up for your lack of distance...

It was an anecdote, but I'll address it anyway.

Player C still has the advantage. He seems to have a glaring weakness, but that's this thread:

Why does he have the advantage? Because putting is easier than hitting both a greenside bunker shot and a 100 yard wedge. If the three of you played those exact shots, hundreds of times, you're going to find that Player C's scoring average will be lower. Even if he were the world's worst putter, it wouldn't take that much work to improve that skill, compared to the other two.

That's what this thread is about: scoring averages, not individual events. In this particular instance, all three players carded the same score, but do this hundreds of times. How many shots will Player A stick inside 8 feet (Hint: Not as many as you think)? How often can Player B get up and down from the greenside bunker (Again, not that often)? All players can reasonably make par from their positions, but Player C is the one who is most likely to make birdie (and the occasional eagle).

If you had to make the lowest score possible, which approach shot would you pick?

Weird things can happen during individual events that aren't representative of typical results. I once saw a player skull his approach shot straight towards a pond. The ball skipped twice on the water, hopped up over the bank, and rolled onto the green. Nobody would say that hitting a wormburner directly at a pond is the best way to get a GIR, and the fact that it happened does not strengthen the argument for doing so.

And besides, Player B has a distance advantage, too. He can reach a 500 yard par 5 in two.

Well stated Bill.  It is obvious that given the three in this example, putting should be everyones first choice.  It baffles me why anyone would think otherwise.

[Jakester23]

Well stated Bill.  It is obvious that given the three in this example, putting should be everyones first choice.  It baffles me why anyone would think otherwise.

I believe a lot of people have a completely unrealistic opinion of how good they are from 100 yards (using the example above). You always remember that 1 perfect 100 yard shot and forget the other 3. Where one missed the green completely,one was 40 ft left, and one was 35 ft short. I know I don't always hit it inside 20 ft from 100. I might expect to but it doesn't happen as much as I'd like.

[Aflighter]

Distance is important to an extent for amateurs, but isn't there such a thing as Adequate Distance... There are golfers I hit it farther than that shoot around the same score or better than I do, The same is true for golfers who hit it farther than I do... and I score the same or better than I do...

For example, I average around 265 or so with little to no wind at 1400 ft above sea level at 70° F... We'll call me golfer B...

Golfer A: Average drive carry and roll: 230 yards

Golfer B: is me...

Golfer C: Long hitter average drive 290 yards

We all play the same 500-yard, par 5 hole, under what we will calm normal June Ithaca conditions(northwest wind, 8-10 mph, 72° F, under partly cloudy skies.), Fairway Bunker on left 240 to carry, tight hole with trees on both sides, and a diagonal ditch running about 60 yards short of the green, one greenside bunker on right, green slopes toward you and by June faster than hell, pin is middle right...

All three of us hit our average distance drives into the fairway...

Golfer A: 270 from the center, 220 to carry the ditch... this golfer will probably take either a lofted hybrid or a mid-iron and lay-up short of the ditch... say he hits an average distance 6-iron and leaves himself 100 yards, because he is a good short iron/wedge player...

I have 235 to the middle, and 185 to carry the ditch, I can probably take a 4-wood and reach the green... so I hit the 4-wood solid, but I block it in the bunker, which isn't a terrible miss because, after a lot of hard work, I'm a good bunker player...

Player C: Only has 210 to the middle and 160 to carry the ditch, Hits a 4-iron in the left center of the green, past pin high 30 feet away...

Player A: Hits a great wedge from 100 yards to 8 feet or so...

I hit my bunker shot to about 6 feet...

Player C: races his first putt 8 feet by, because he forgot to factor in how fast the greens were...

Player A: Hits a good putt, but just misses on the high side, and taps in for a par...

I hit a perfect putt on-line and it lips out because I gave it just a hair too much speed... and tap in for a 5...

Player C: is a little bold with his comebacker and hits it three feet by... but makes the next one for a five...

All three golfers made par, in three totally different ways, one with good wedge play, one by knowing their strengths, and one because we'll he struggles with putting...

The moral of the story is distance is all well and good, but the other parts of your game can make up for your lack of distance...

A note to the person who said a 190-yard driver can't shoot in the 70s for average, that's not true at all, I know an older gentleman at the course who from the men's tees, hitting it maybe 200 yards these days tops, is a scratch player, he has the best Damn short game I have ever seen though

The only problem with your scenario is you said player C hits green with 4 iron from 210.I dont care how long a hitter he is.210 is still long way to a green to say itll be putting.Probably more than likely hell be in that same bunker your in or somewhere else around green.That goes back to what i said that short game trumps everything because thats what actually puts ball in the hole.

[billchao]

Guys, this thread isn't about long game vs short game. That's here: [CONTENTEMBED=/t/14930/relative-importance-of-the-long-game-short-game-etc-mark-broadie-strokes-gained-etc layout=block][/CONTENTEMBED]

[RFKFREAK]

I believe a lot of people have a completely unrealistic opinion of how good they are from 100 yards (using the example above). You always remember that 1 perfect 100 yard shot and forget the other 3. Where one missed the green completely,one was 40 ft left, and one was 35 ft short. I know I don't always hit it inside 20 ft from 100. I might expect to but it doesn't happen as much as I'd like.

Seriously.  I'm a 30+ HC and when I'm a 100 yards out, I expect hit it onto the green and get upset with myself when I don't.  That said, I'm sure if I kept that stat on myself, it'd show that I shouldn't be that surprised when I don't get it on the green.

I'd still get upset, though, haha.