Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Braivo]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

You attest to each stipulated round, but your score is subject to correction for the duration of the competition.

Perhaps professional tour players should no longer keep and attest to their own scores? If outside forces, like the viewers at home, can change the competition, then the dynamic has changed from its origins anyway. Players kept score within their own group and that was that. If a playing partner or caddie didn't see a rule violation then it was done and they moved on. I don't believe we can have this both ways, with the player being held to signing for a score that can change for something they are not even aware of (like the Anna Nordquist sand incident). 

[Jack Watson]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh brother… Rules Officials are not tasked with watching EVERY action by EVERY player. Their job is to help players, not watch them all like hawks.

Why should the rules be changed? Because a popular American player didn't know the rules?

Until the tournament is over, players are responsible for their actions in that tournament. The tournament is a 72-hole competition, not a separate series of 18-hole competitions (the FedExCup is a series of 40-ish 72-hole competitions, for example).

If you want to cut the time off at the end of the day, imagine if Rory Sabbatini or Rory McIlroy committed a breach late on a Thursday and it's discovered Saturday morning. What's the golfer to do? Play on? WD? Commit a penalty to call it on themselves to set the universe right again?

People were asking for Tiger to WD himself in the 2013 Masters. He chose to play on. Brandel Chamblee ripped him to shreds for that, IIRC.

There's nothing wrong with that. The rough, the fairway… it's all "through the green." The Rules of Golf can help you quite often, too. There's nothing hypocritical there.

What if Rory commits a breach late Sunday ands it's not found until Monday afternoon?  Under current rules he gets away with cheating as long as it's done final round.   But a prior round?  DOUBLE PENALTY at the time?  Single penalty.

retroactive penalties make no sense also because the player commits a breach and if penalized at one time during the tournament it's a penalty of 2 but if the same breach is found at a different time of the tournament it's a penalty of four for exactly the same thing!

makes no sense the way the rules currently are

Edited April 4, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Bballref]

3 minutes ago, roamin said:

Absolutely possible. Heck, DIY with a sharpie if you need to so you don't ****-up and cost yourself a major. 

I thought of that too. I wonder if the pros do the same? I use a casino chip but I don't worry about replacing the ball an inch or less off the mark. 

In response to hitting a ball marker with a putt, I'm sure there are many of us who use a fellow golfer's marker to help gauge their own putts.

[saevel25]

After watching the video I honestly can't believe how far she moved the ball away from the marker. She didn't even stand back up. My only guess was because she wasn't behind the marker, relative to the ball, as most people are every time they mark the ball. 

As for people calling it in. I'm not sure I like people doing that. I kinda feel they shouldn't be able to. If someone on the course saw it, that is fine with me. My only concern is that they don't show everyone playing golf equally. The players playing better are then under more scrutiny than those not playing well. I get it, don't break the rules. In the end, when a player gets called out more often than another, just because they are on TV more, is not right in my opinion.

[roamin]

11 minutes ago, Braivo said:

If a playing partner or caddie didn't see a rule violation then it was done and they moved on.

I don't think that's true. Golfers are supposed to call penalties on themselves, regardless of who sees it.

8 minutes ago, Bballref said:

I use a casino chip but I don't worry about replacing the ball an inch or less off the mark. 

That's the sticking point to me. You, me, and I would bet most golfers, don't worry about it because, despite prior arguments by others about infinitesimally small points in space and "exact" positions, it's a pretty easy thing to do. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by roamin

[gregsandiego]

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Yes, if a ball hits a ball marker it can kick it off line.

How do the pros handle this? I've always been asked to offset my marker by amateurs.

[Jack Watson]

The rules should not apply different penalties for the same breach based on time it was found.

The breach is the same either way.

[David in FL]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The rules should not apply different penalties for the same breach based on time it was found.

The breach is the same either way.

Correct.  Which is exactly what happened here.

The first breach, was for playing the ball from the wrong spot.

The second was for signing an incorrect scorecard.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, gregsandiego said:

How do the pros handle this? I've always been asked to offset my marker by amateurs.

The pros do it the same way most of us amateurs do, hopefully with more care than an average amateur.  Place the mark immediately behind the ball (or other specific location), then use a putterhead aligned with a specific reference point to offset the mark.  Reverse the process when replacing the ball.

 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

The Solheim Cup incident in 2000 when Annika Sorenstam chipped in for birdie against Kelly Robbins and Pat Hurst, but had played out-of-turn. They made her re-play the shot, and the Americans won the hole. They were accused of unsportsmanlike conduct, but I thought it was a great example of them using the rules to their advantage.  It's similar to this incident...Annika broke the rule, but was considered the victim, and the Americans were the bad guys. 

One of my favorite quotes regarding the Rules of Golf:

"Golf is the only game in the world in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." - Patrick Campbell, How to Become a Scratch Golfer

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Perhaps professional tour players should no longer keep and attest to their own scores?

They'd still have attest to their scores at the end of the round.

See, this is what happens… you raise what you think is a solution, it's shot down, so you tweak it, and eventually you'll find you've had to add so many contrivances that it's quickly become ridiculous.

Furthermore… this is all an attempt to work around a player who breached the rules because the ultimate outcome doesn't sit right. Had this been Shenshen Feng, I doubt people would care all that much. But it was Lexi Thompson, so people are twisting every which way to try to justify everything or change it for the future.

How about a little KISS: the player is responsible for knowing the rules and following them.

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

If outside forces, like the viewers at home, can change the competition

An outside force did not change the competition. Lexi breached the rules. She signed an incorrect scorecard. This wasn't a fan running out and grabbing a golf ball and throwing it into a bush or OB. C'mon… Lexi is the perpetrator here. Not the fan. Not the rules committee. Lexi Thompson.

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Players kept score within their own group and that was that. If a playing partner or caddie didn't see a rule violation then it was done and they moved on.

Since when? They had crowds watching the earliest British Opens 150 years ago.

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I don't believe we can have this both ways, with the player being held to signing for a score that can change for something they are not even aware of (like the Anna Nordquist sand incident). 

:sigh: We don't have it "both ways." Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and following them.

KISS.

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

What if Rory commits a breach late Sunday ands it's not found until Monday afternoon?  Under current rules he gets away with cheating as long as it's done final round. But a prior round? DOUBLE PENALTY at the time?  Single penalty.

It's not a double penalty. It's two penalties for two breaches of the rules. And Rory would probably feel horrible, and may take actions in that regard.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The rules should not apply different penalties for the same breach based on time it was found.

The breach is the same either way.

They aren't the same breach. It's two separate breaches.

[roamin]

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Correct.  Which is exactly what happened here.

The first breach, was for playing the ball from the wrong spot.

The second was for signing an incorrect scorecard.

This. She has until the end of the round to report the error or the penalty gets worse. Honestly, I'm starting to feel even better about it and maybe, even, not like that it's no longer a DQ.

[Ernest Jones]

17 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

What if Rory commits a breach late Sunday ands it's not found until Monday afternoon?  Under current rules he gets away with cheating as long as it's done final round.   But a prior round?  DOUBLE PENALTY at the time?  Single penalty.

retroactive penalties make no sense also because the player commits a breach and if penalized at one time during the tournament it's a penalty of 2 but if the same breach is found at a different time of the tournament it's a penalty of four for exactly the same thing!

makes no sense the way the rules currently are

 

She was never penalized 4 points for the breach. 

[HitAndGiggle]

OK...I have been watching this round in segments on my dvr and I'm not going to read beyond the OP because I want to learn what happened as I watch the recording. Late last night as I was about to crash I watched up through the point where they informed her and she, through tears, birdied the next hole. Frankly...it ticked me off they way this went down. I hope that she won this tournament. If I were to see what the infamous tv viewer saw I wouldn't have bothered with it. What a joke. I will, however, use the zoomed-in ball marking footage as a lesson for my son who is going to start competing this month. My heart goes out to Lexi.

[Ernest Jones]

2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Correct.  Which is exactly what happened here.

The first breach, was for playing the ball from the wrong spot.

The second was for signing an incorrect scorecard.

 

@David in FL beat me to it.

[David in FL]

24 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I agree with the statement that the rules don't exist to punish players, but I've always believed that players who know the rules can use them to their advantage.  Maybe that isn't the same as "helping" them, maybe it is, I don't know.  But when Tiger had that boulder moved, that was using the rules to his advantage.  

The Solheim Cup incident in 2000 when Annika Sorenstam chipped in for birdie against Kelly Robbins and Pat Hurst, but had played out-of-turn. They made her re-play the shot, and the Americans won the hole. They were accused of unsportsmanlike conduct, but I thought it was a great example of them using the rules to their advantage.  It's similar to this incident...Annika broke the rule, but was considered the victim, and the Americans were the bad guys. 

Of course.  But the rules are neither punitive nor beneficial in and of themselves.  The often provide options to a player.  The player can then choose which option he prefers.  The rule may help, it may not.  Again, all it does is inform us how to proceed so that everyone is treated in the same way, under the same circumstance.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

OK...I have been watching this round in segments on my dvr and I'm not going to read beyond the OP because I want to learn what happened as I watch the recording. Late last night as I was about to crash I watched up through the point where they informed her and she, through tears, birdied the next hole. Frankly...it ticked me off they way this went down. I hope that she won this tournament. If I were to see what the infamous tv viewer saw I wouldn't have bothered with it. What a joke.

 

2 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

I will, however, use the zoomed-in ball marking footage as a lesson for my son who is going to start competing this month. My heart goes out to Lexi.

There's a strange dichotomy in your two joined sentences. On the one hand you think it's a joke to call in the infraction, and yet on the other you are using it as a lesson for your son.

I have to ask, "What lesson are you planning on teaching your son?"

[tlazzol]

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Are these still available? Trying to figure out to pay if they are available.

[Braivo]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

One of my favorite quotes regarding the Rules of Golf:

"Golf is the only game in the world in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." - Patrick Campbell, How to Become a Scratch Golfer

They'd still have attest to their scores at the end of the round.

See, this is what happens… you raise what you think is a solution, it's shot down, so you tweak it, and eventually you'll find you've had to add so many contrivances that it's quickly become ridiculous.

Furthermore… this is all an attempt to work around a player who breached the rules because the ultimate outcome doesn't sit right. Had this been Shenshen Feng, I doubt people would care all that much. But it was Lexi Thompson, so people are twisting every which way to try to justify everything or change it for the future.

How about a little KISS: the player is responsible for knowing the rules and following them.

An outside force did not change the competition. Lexi breached the rules. She signed an incorrect scorecard. This wasn't a fan running out and grabbing a golf ball and throwing it into a bush or OB. C'mon… Lexi is the perpetrator here. Not the fan. Not the rules committee. Lexi Thompson.

Since when? They had crowds watching the earliest British Opens 150 years ago.

:sigh: We don't have it "both ways." Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and following them.

KISS.

It's not a double penalty. It's two penalties for two breaches of the rules. And Rory would probably feel horrible, and may take actions in that regard.

They aren't the same breach. It's two separate breaches.

First of all, I don't really care about Lexi, this is not motivated by any sort of affinity. I rarely watch LPGA and have no emotional investment in the outcome. 

Secondly, you have already conceded that she did not intentionally break the rules, meaning she did not KNOW at the time of the infraction that she had broken the rule. This is not an issue of knowing the rules, it was an issue of an error which SHE DID NOT KNOW she had committed (which you, again, concede). 

Third, my opinion is simple (KISS): A player should not be penalized TWICE for an unintentional infraction simply because it was discovered AFTER the card is signed.