Women's Professional Golf Has a Problem in the U.S.

[Alx]

Womens sports just isnt very interesting. Its fun to see freakish athletes miles beyond what any regular person could ever do.

With women you just dont get that.

Same thing applies to amateur sports. Its not a gender thing, its a performance thing.

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

Look at the leaderboard. There are FOUR Americans in the top-30 of this Open. The first 3 pages of the leaderboard is littered with Orientals that most people have no clue who they are. This is what has happened to Women's Golf. I'm sure there are some that may see the Asian Invasion as a good thing....but I see it as something that has killed the interest in Women's Golf in America. I remember the days of Nancy Lopez and Pat Bradley and Annika Sorrenstam when the US Women's Open was a big story and people would watch. Now no one cares. Heck, I didn't even know it was going on until I saw this thread. SportsCenter barely even mentioned the Open and it's not like there's any other sports going on right now. 

Orientals? Really?

And… "killed the interest in women's golf in America"? Got any facts to go along with that?

I've seen things that suggest the opposite is true, for example: http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/18537682/the-outlook-bright-2017-lpga-tour-season.

Girls represent the fastest growing segment of golfers in the U.S. https://www.girlsgolf.org and other groups are helping to see to that. I watched and was more interested in the women's NCAAs than the men's this year and the last two years prior.

And Annika isn't an American. I'm watching the USWO right now. I never saw Pat Bradley or Nancy Lopez play a USWO AFAIK. Certainly never win one (wait, TV just said Nancy Lopez never won a USWO. Seriously just now.)

[jamo]

56 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

Look at the leaderboard. There are FOUR Americans in the top-30 of this Open. The first 3 pages of the leaderboard is littered with Orientals that most people have no clue who they are. This is what has happened to Women's Golf. I'm sure there are some that may see the Asian Invasion as a good thing....but I see it as something that has killed the interest in Women's Golf in America. I remember the days of Nancy Lopez and Pat Bradley and Annika Sorrenstam when the US Women's Open was a big story and people would watch. Now no one cares. Heck, I didn't even know it was going on until I saw this thread. SportsCenter barely even mentioned the Open and it's not like there's any other sports going on right now. 

Do you have anything to back that up, or is it just a feel thing?

[Valleygolfer]

I watch the women play on television if it is on but I probably would be disappointed in real life. Although, I could tolerate 18 holes with Jaye Marie Green... I tell you it is a fine line between rooting and supporting the girls vs being labeled a over zealous creep. I was watching a interview of how they were uncomfortable with some of their male "groupies." I'm not sure I should feel bad for the fan or worried for the player.

[JonMA1]

I enjoy women's golf and will often choose to watch the LPGA over the PGA. Maybe if I were a low single-digit golfer the level at which they play wouldn't impress me as much. But it's better golf than I'll likely ever see on the courses I play.

As far as what kind of shape they're in, from what country they were born, or whether they speak fluent English, I'm not sure any of that matters very much to me.

7 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

I tell you it is a fine line between rooting and supporting the girls vs being labeled a over zealous creep

I didn't know that was a thing. Don't get me wrong, I've made tasteless, sexist jokes about the LPGA amongst friends, but when it comes down to it, it's far more about the game than it is how sexy any of them look. If I wanted porn, I'd watch porn. If I want to see good golf, I'll watch the LPGA.

[Valleygolfer]

16 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I didn't know that was a thing. Don't get me wrong, I've made tasteless, sexist jokes about the LPGA amongst friends, but when it comes down to it, it's far more about the game than it is how sexy any of them look. If I wanted porn, I'd watch porn. If I want to see good golf, I'll watch the LPGA.

I guess there are some dudes that travel to a lot of their pro's tournaments, make their presence known by always getting autographs or getting their attention. I can think of say.....a million other things I could be doing other than something like that.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Valleygolfer
wrong word

[JonMA1]

Just now, Valleygolfer said:

I guess there are some dudes that travel to a lot of their fans tournaments, make their presence known by always getting autographs or getting their attention. I can think of say.....a million other things I could be doing other than something like that.

Yeah, that's gotta be really awkward for the players. They want to build a fan base, but not with a bunch of creepers. 

Then again, from what I can see on TV, there seems to be a lot of "man crushes" going on with the PGA as well from fans. It's one thing for a kid to get excited about meeting a famous athlete and trying really hard to get an autograph or a high five. But when you see a 30 year old dude trying that hard it's kind of pathetic.

 

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

I tell you it is a fine line between rooting and supporting the girls vs being labeled a over zealous creep. I was watching a interview of how they were uncomfortable with some of their male "groupies." I'm not sure I should feel bad for the fan or worried for the player.

Yeah, you are probably totally fine. Those people they're talking about really are creepy. They do a LOT of weird stuff.

[Buckeyebowman]

When I was a kid and just learning the game my Uncle, a country club pro, told me that if I wanted to learn how to swing a golf club I should watch the lady pros! Their swings weren't as idiosyncratic as the men.

Maybe not so much today. There used to be an LPGA tour stop in our area, and I went every year. Those ladies can play! Hey, I enjoy golf!

[rehmwa]

"oriental" has a lot of bad connotations nowadays and isn't used much except for objects (rugs, etc).  Typically "asian" is used more today when referencing people.  No matter how harmless the usage is intended by decent people.

[DeadMan]

I personally enjoy watching the LPGA and women's golf. I think in some ways, the TV coverage is better on the LPGA than the PGA. And LPGA players play in a much more relatable way to most golfers.

That said, I think there's two problems the LPGA has:

1. Lack of a dominant star. People who casually follow golf won't know more than a couple of players, and there's been nobody in recent years that has been good enough to be a household name. You're not going to tune in to see a random golfer win a major. I bet the LPGA is hoping with all their might that Lexi will emerge as that player.
2. Lack of money, especially compared to the men's game. It's extremely difficult for any women outside the top, what, 100 (? - I'm guessing here) on the LPGA to make money. Just think about this - Wes Bryan was the Web.com Tour's money leader last year. He made $449,000 in 13 events on the Web.com Tour. That would have put him 40th on the LGPA tour, and the person who was 40th on the LPGA money list played in 29 events.
   
   The amount of work it takes to get to that level compared to the reward you get is out of whack. Plus, you can't be 100th on the LPGA Tour for 5 years and survive. The development has to be extremely difficult.

I'll keep watching, and I do really enjoy watching the women play. The LPGA will survive, and there are definitely women's golfers that make plenty of money.

 

EDIT: I do realize my two points conflict a bit.

Edited July 14, 2017 by DeadMan

[boogielicious]

14 hours ago, ChrisP said:

Look at the leaderboard. There are FOUR Americans in the top-30 of this Open. The first 3 pages of the leaderboard is littered with Orientals that most people have no clue who they are. This is what has happened to Women's Golf. I'm sure there are some that may see the Asian Invasion as a good thing....but I see it as something that has killed the interest in Women's Golf in America. I remember the days of Nancy Lopez and Pat Bradley and Annika Sorrenstam when the US Women's Open was a big story and people would watch. Now no one cares. Heck, I didn't even know it was going on until I saw this thread. SportsCenter barely even mentioned the Open and it's not like there's any other sports going on right now. 

FWIW, most of the Asian players live here in the US now. Many came over at a young age like Inbee Park. Many of the European women, and some Asian went to US colleges on scholarship.

It is an international sport now. I find it refreshing that the Asian players want to live an play here. I watch because I like to watch good golf.

I don't agree with you that no one cares either. You commented on this thread after all and so have many others. It is never going to get the ratings of the PGA, but that is what the Golf Channel is for.

[Patch]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Because even fewer people are gonna watch a final round on, what, Wednesday?

Yeah you are probably right. Then again, I am one of those who does not watch much televised golf. Wednesday, or Sunday it wouldn't matter much to me. I also know most of the lpga players would be me straight up, even when I was playing well.......lo l

[iacas]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

1.  
2. Lack of money, especially compared to the men's game. It's extremely difficult for any women outside the top, what, 100 (? - I'm guessing here) on the LPGA to make money. Just think about this - Wes Bryan was the Web.com Tour's money leader last year. He made $449,000 in 13 events on the Web.com Tour. That would have put him 40th on the LGPA tour, and the person who was 40th on the LPGA money list played in 29 events.

A fairly prominent instructor who had a lot of LPGA clients at the time told me this: "The majority of that Tour is paying the top 30 to play golf. They're losing money." That may be 40 now, but the point remains: if you're outside the top 50 you're not making much of a living, with the costs you have to travel, maintain a home and hotels, caddies, etc.

He was constantly being asked for help by women but they'd try to get deals where they'd pay $100/hour but then they'd ask if they could split the cost with one of their friends on the Tour, or whatever… a guy on the PGA Tour is far more willing to pay a few thousand dollars and NOT share the info because he wants to get better, and he can make that money back and more by placing three spots higher in a single event.

There's very little money on the LPGA Tour, relatively speaking. But there's more now than there used to be. And you don't have to go back too far to see some really low numbers. Carolyn Bivens was not a great commissioner.

[DeadMan]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

A fairly prominent instructor who had a lot of LPGA clients at the time told me this: "The majority of that Tour is paying the top 30 to play golf. They're losing money." That may be 40 now, but the point remains: if you're outside the top 50 you're not making much of a living, with the costs you have to travel, maintain a home and hotels, caddies, etc.

He was constantly being asked for help by women but they'd try to get deals where they'd pay $100/hour but then they'd ask if they could split the cost with one of their friends on the Tour, or whatever… a guy on the PGA Tour is far more willing to pay a few thousand dollars and NOT share the info because he wants to get better, and he can make that money back and more by placing three spots higher in a single event.

There's very little money on the LPGA Tour, relatively speaking. But there's more now than there used to be.

I was frankly surprised that the 40th person on the money list made over $400,000. When you factor in travel, agent fees, caddy fees, and instruction, that's probably still relatively comfortable, although not rich by any means. But for the person who's 100th and making less than $100,000, there's no way she's breaking even playing golf.

So you can be a top 100 female golfer in the world and not make money ... why would you choose that path if you're not ultra-talented? There's no Zach Johnson-type player on the LPGA tour, because she would have had to quit years ago. The female Jason Dufner is working in an office somewhere.

Edited July 14, 2017 by DeadMan

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I was frankly surprised that the 40th person on the money list made over $400,000. When you factor in travel, agent fees, caddy fees, and instruction, that's probably still relatively comfortable, although not rich by any means. But for the person who's 100th and making less than $100,000, there's no way she's breaking even playing golf.

It's "comfortable" but it's not "great" or even all that "good."

Taxes are taken out, of course. Plus caddies, travel, agent fees, their mortgage that they don't use but 15 weeks out of the year… memberships to a club to practice, some instruction…

I haven't heard of an LPGA Tour player (maybe Michelle Wie) owning her own Trackman or Flightscope like you see on the PGA Tour, for example.

[ChrisP]

17 hours ago, jamo said:

Do you have anything to back that up, or is it just a feel thing?

There's been articles on the lack of interest (http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/10/columnist-argues-lpga-tour-popularity-declining-because-too-many-gosh-darn-foreigners/) (http://www.desertsun.com/story/sports/golf/2015/04/21/lpga-putting-good-show-watching/26099541/) and Jan Stephenson voiced her opinion on "The Asian Invasion", but like I said before, I remember when I was younger and the US Women's Open was a pretty big thing. People enjoyed watching Annika (yes, I know she's Swedish but she was very popular in America.) and it was a big story when Nancy Lopez was Phil Mickelson and was trying to break through and win a Women's US Open instead of always coming up short. I remember watching SportsCenter and the US Women's Open was the top story on the news. The interest just isn't there anymore. I'm not faulting the players or the LPGA. It just is what it is. 

I would like to see an American player step up and dominate the game like Tiger did with the men. Paula Creamer was someone who I personally loved watching (not only because she was cute :) I think it would be great for the game over here in the States. Right now Lexi Thompson is the only American ranked in the top-13. Eight of the top 15 players in the world are Koreans. That's great for that country, but is that really going to garner interest over here in the States if they are dominating the game?

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by ChrisP

[iacas]

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

There's been articles on the lack of interest (http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/10/columnist-argues-lpga-tour-popularity-declining-because-too-many-gosh-darn-foreigners/) (http://www.desertsun.com/story/sports/golf/2015/04/21/lpga-putting-good-show-watching/26099541/) and Jan Stephenson voiced her opinion on "The Asian Invasion", but like I said before, I remember when I was younger and the US Women's Open was a pretty big thing.

One article is from 2013. Another is from 2015. Jan's comments were from, IIRC, 2003?

The 2013 article cited no facts. It was the opinion of one.

The 2015 article compared it to a Lexi/Michelle final-round showdown in 2014. Even though the 2015 tournament also had two American players battling it out (Stacy and Brittany), they simply weren't as exciting. It's a sample size of one.

We've had bad years of The Masters getting bad ratings, too. Or the U.S. Open, even. Doesn't mean the men's tour is doomed.

I'd love to see actual data, not just what you think is about right. Valuable, valid data from a longer period of time and a sample size of greater than one tournament.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

I remember when I was younger and the US Women's Open was a pretty big thing. People enjoyed watching Annika (yes, I know she's Swedish but she was very popular in America.) and it was a big story when Nancy Lopez was Phil Mickelson and was trying to break through and win a Women's US Open instead of always coming up short. I remember watching SportsCenter and the US Women's Open was the top story on the news. The interest just isn't there anymore. I'm not faulting the players or the LPGA. It just is what it is.

Your memories, while you may put a lot of faith in them… don't really convince me of anything. The LPGA feels like it's in a better place now than ten years ago, twenty years ago, if you ask me.

But neither of us have a bunch of facts at our disposal to prove this.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

I would like to see an American player step up and dominate the game like Tiger did with the men. Paula Creamer was someone who I personally loved watching (not only because she was cute :) I think it would be great for the game over here in the States. Right now Lexi Thompson is the only American ranked in the top-13. Eight of the top 15 players in the world are Koreans. That's great for that country, but is that really going to garner interest over here in the States if they are dominating the game?

You might love it, but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen. So it is what it is.

The women's game is far more global. Girls golf is growing in the U.S., but it's going to take some time before the American gals can catch up (if they can at all - the Asian culture is very much about dedication, success, etc.).