Can someone short off the tee become #1 again?

[Moxley]

I voted no, and I think it's a shame too. Although I'm taking 'again' to mean the foreseeable future. 

I would hope that by the time the next generation are playing professionally, more balance would be achieved between the relative field. 

[cutchemist42]

Who was the last truly short player to be #1 for a decent amount of time?

[Piz]

15 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Who was the last truly short player to be #1 for a decent amount of time?

Luke Donald.  He held the #1 spot for 40 weeks, continuous, and 56 overall back in 2011-2012.

[jamo]

On a long enough timeline, sure. The rules could change, the game could become much less popular and not attract good athletes, etc. But the way the game is currently going, it would take something very special. 

[allenc]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

On a long enough timeline, sure. The rules could change, the game could become much less popular and not attract good athletes, etc. But the way the game is currently going, it would take something very special. 

I’ve got a different take on this idea.  Because distance is so important, I can see the bottom 1/3 of The Tour closing the distance gap on the top 2/3 in the coming years.  The short hitters will lose their cards and be replaced by longer.  If that happens then a bottom 1/3 player can easily become #1, as he won’t be very “short” at all.

[woodzie264]

28 minutes ago, allenc said:

I’ve got a different take on this idea.  Because distance is so important, I can see the bottom 1/3 of The Tour closing the distance gap on the top 2/3 in the coming years.  The short hitters will lose their cards and be replaced by longer.  If that happens then a bottom 1/3 player can easily become #1, as he won’t be very “short” at all.

Interesting - wouldn't have thought of that, but makes sense

[turtleback]

6 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

Who was the last truly short player to be #1 for a decent amount of time?

My candidate - although the OWGR did not exist during his career, surely he would have been #1 for a stretch - is Lee Trevino.

Billy Casper might fit in there, as well.

[billchao]

20 minutes ago, turtleback said:

My candidate - although the OWGR did not exist during his career, surely he would have been #1 for a stretch - is Lee Trevino.

Billy Casper might fit in there, as well.

I don't know. There was some guy named Nicklaus playing during that time who was pretty good.

[Gunsmoke]

I voted yes , I'm still old school and believe scoring is done on the green not how far off the tee a player is. Yes I know it's easier to get close hitting a 9 iron then it is swinging a 5 iron. A short hitter just has to spend more time on the range....

[turtleback]

18 hours ago, billchao said:

I don't know. There was some guy named Nicklaus playing during that time who was pretty good.

 From 68-70, in the middle of Jack's prime, no one won more tournaments than Billy Casper.  After a stretch like that it is hard to imagine a rational system that would not have him at #1.  Jack would certainly have been #1 for a lot of the time, but Billy, and likely Lee, would have got in there in stretches.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

I voted yes , I'm still old school and believe scoring is done on the green not how far off the tee a player is. Yes I know it's easier to get close hitting a 9 iron then it is swinging a 5 iron. A short hitter just has to spend more time on the range....

Good point, especially if you have a really strong iron game like Luke Donald did when he was number 1.

55 minutes ago, turtleback said:

 From 68-70, in the middle of Jack's prime, no one won more tournaments than Billy Casper.  After a stretch like that it is hard to imagine a rational system that would not have him at #1.  Jack would certainly have been #1 for a lot of the time, but Billy, and likely Lee, would have got in there in stretches.

I kind of wondered about Lee Trevino, because he's certainly a very strong player? He beat Jack a few times in head to head competitions. It didn't seem like he's that short off the tee though, shorter than Jack but not way behind the pack?

I didn't know about Billy, but what you stated makes sense. . .

Edited February 11, 2018 by Lihu

[shanksalot]

I voted no, but if for some reason a player in the bottom third somehow does it they will not, can not,stay there for long. Too many guys who hit it out of sight and have complete games as well. 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

I voted yes , I'm still old school and believe scoring is done on the green not how far off the tee a player is.

Time to get with the times… and it's not really about how far you hit it, but how many greens you can hit and how close you're able to hit it.

[lastings]

The answer is it is absolutely possibly.   not probably, but possible. 

Driving distance is a contributor to strokes gained tee to green, but certainly not the sole contributor.  

Matt Kuchar was #148 in driving distance last year, #28 in strokes gained tee to green.  and had 9 top 10 finishes last year. 
Francisco Molinari was #98 in driving distance, #4 in strokes gained. 
Kevin Kisner was #120 last year in driving distance, which is right at that bottom 1/3 line and he looked like on of the best golfer on the PGA tour  at the end of last year with 8 top 10s.  

Jordan Spieth we can all agree has the ability to be #1 in the world.  he is just 6 yards above being in the bottom 1/3 of drivers.   
Rafa Cabrera Bello is just 2 yds from being in the bottom 1/3.  
  

 

 

[klineka]

3 minutes ago, lastings said:

The answer is it is absolutely possibly.   not probably, but possible. 

Driving distance is a contributor to strokes gained tee to green, but certainly not the sole contributor.  

Wouldnt strokes gained off the tee be a better indicator to look at for this question? Strokes gained tee to green would take approach shots into account as well, right?

 

9 minutes ago, lastings said:

Jordan Spieth we can all agree has the ability to be #1 in the world.  he is just 6 yards above being in the bottom 1/3 of drivers.   

Thats flawed logic. Hes also 6 yards away from being in the top 30 of drivers. 

Even if Spieth is 6 yards from being in the bottom third of drivers in average distance, he still gained .27 strokes off the tee last year, and its extremely unlikely, borderline impossible IMO that he would suddenly see his average decrease by 6 yards and still be playing well enough to be #1 in the world. 

Spieth is not a relevant example of a "short hitter" as we've talked about in this topic previously.

[lastings]

43 minutes ago, klineka said:

Wouldnt strokes gained off the tee be a better indicator to look at for this question? Strokes gained tee to green would take approach shots into account as well, right?

No, I don't think so.   discussing strokes gained tee to green speaks to how much can be made up with a great approach game even if you're not the longest off the tee. 

 

43 minutes ago, klineka said:

Thats flawed logic. Hes also 6 yards away from being in the top 30 of drivers. 

Even if Spieth is 6 yards from being in the bottom third of drivers in average distance, he still gained .27 strokes off the tee last year, and its extremely unlikely, borderline impossible IMO that he would suddenly see his average decrease by 6 yards and still be playing well enough to be #1 in the world. 

Spieth is not a relevant example of a "short hitter" as we've talked about in this topic previously.

I don't think there's anything flawed about it given that he averaged 290 off the tee in 2015 when he won 3 majors.   it's within the year to year margin of error.  

43 minutes ago, klineka said:

borderline impossible IMO that he would suddenly see his average decrease by 6 yards and still be playing well enough to be #1 in the world. 

Spieth was #1 in the world on 2 separate occasions in 2015 for 3 weeks and for 20 weeks, averaging 291 per Drive.   That season DJ averaged 317.7.   DJ averaged 315 off the tee last year.   

it's silly to say that someone averaging 290 per drive (or, 27 yards shorter than DJ) can't be #1.   it literally just happened in 2015.   290 puts you in the bottom 1/3.

 

Edit: 

Check that.  I was looking at 2014 Spieth when i said 290.  in 2015 the averaged 291.8.  we probably don't need to quibble over 2 yards, though. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by lastings

[Lihu]

Just asked a long time golf friend of mine and he said "Sure", then qualified that with "If he can carry his 7i 200 yards!" 

[billchao]

2 hours ago, lastings said:

Spieth was #1 in the world on 2 separate occasions in 2015 for 3 weeks and for 20 weeks, averaging 291 per Drive.   That season DJ averaged 317.7.   DJ averaged 315 off the tee last year.   

it's silly to say that someone averaging 290 per drive (or, 27 yards shorter than DJ) can't be #1.   it literally just happened in 2015.   290 puts you in the bottom 1/3.

 

Edit: 

Check that.  I was looking at 2014 Spieth when i said 290.  in 2015 the averaged 291.8.  we probably don't need to quibble over 2 yards, though. 

You're mixing and matching years. In 2015, Spieth's 291.8 average driving distance was T78, towards the top of the middle third or slightly above average. This is basically the same position as his 295.6 average in 2017, good for T75.

In 2017, 290 was right on the cusp of being bottom third, but in 2015 290 was just about the median.

BTW, in 2014 Spieth's average was 289.7, good for T89, which is right at the median that year. Spieth has never been bottom third in driving distance in his career, with 2014 being his lowest year and 2016 being his highest (51st). He's above average in distance and he's actually closer to top third than bottom third. He's not a short hitter.

---

What I think throws a lot of people off is they keep comparing him to a guy like Dustin Johnson, failing to realize that DJ and his closest peers are in a separate tier altogether. There's a lot of separation at the top.

In 2017, DJ was 2nd in driving distance at 315, which was about 6 yards longer than the #10 guys (Tony Finau and Kevin Tway). Those guys were 6 yards longer than Ryan Palmer at 27 who was 6 yards longer than Cody Gribble at 60. DJ is head and shoulders above most of the top third in driving distance.