Faster Play - Is It Hurting the Game?

[Vinsk]

18 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

if we had been scorned excessively by those playing behind us at that time it may have moved us away from the game.

That’s unfortunate imo to have that attitude by anyone. How about, ‘we seem to be getting scorned for the same reason...let’s look into what we’re doing wrong.’

it’s the classic problem. Slow players don’t think or realize they’re slow. More emphasis on etiquette should be taught to new golfers to avoid the common errors Erik mentioned in a previous post.

And honestly if people playing slow get upset when they’re called on it and choose to quit rather than improve their pace by learning the ropes....screw ‘em. Let them quit.

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

I too like to play fast but really don't mind a 5 hour round so long as folks aren't being exceptionally inconsiderate;

Anyone playing a five-hour round is being exceptionally inconsiderate. There's absolutely no reason why a round of golf should take that long… unless you're including a one-hour rain delay.

There's no way they can't be doing things like standing around shooting the shit or something. It's impossible to be respectful, responsible, and take five hours to play 18 holes.

Excusing such a lack of consideration makes you a part of the problem.

42 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Short of those glaring taboo's I just remind myself that we all went through that period of the game and if we had been scorned excessively by those playing behind us at that time it may have moved us away from the game.

No, we didn't. I played in 3-3.5 hours when I was shooting in the 90s as a beginner, too. Like I said, I got to play more golf if I played quickly.

[fishgolf]

41 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

That’s unfortunate imo to have that attitude by anyone. How about, ‘we seem to be getting scorned for the same reason...let’s look into what we’re doing wrong.’

it’s the classic problem. Slow players don’t think or realize they’re slow. More emphasis on etiquette should be taught to new golfers to avoid the common errors Erik mentioned in a previous post.

And honestly if people playing slow get upset when they’re called on it and choose to quit rather than improve their pace by learning the ropes....screw ‘em. Let them quit.

Excessive being a key point.  We seem to quickly forget our early to the game struggles and become increasingly intolerant as handicaps drop.  Also, many courses simply do not employ marshal's and it can also be that particular courses have a higher number of high handicap players. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, fishgolf said:

We seem to quickly forget our early to the game struggles and become increasingly intolerant as handicaps drop.

As I said above, I don't agree. When I was a beginner I played quickly, too.

I play with my daughter a lot too. I stressed to her from the outset that she play quickly.

You can shoot 100 in three hours, and yet there are some who still choose to shoot 70 in five.

[TRUCKER]

I agree with iacas. When I was a 21 handicap it took me the same amount of time to play as it does now. I've shot my best round of 75 and a high of 95 and a bunch in between within the last 2 months. All of those rounds took the same amount of time. Its the guy that hits his drive 200/210 yards and then waits for the green to clear backing everybody up because now he's going to hit his 3 wood or hybrid off the deck 235 yards on the green. Then he hits it fat 100 yards.

BTW I don't play public courses hardly at all. But when I do that's what I see as one of the main problems. Also just pick up after 8.

[colin007]

The guy who taught me how to play stressed from day one that I play quickly. If I was hacking it up, on my 11th shot and not even on the green yet, he's telling me to pick it up and walk to the next tee. It's part of learning how to play, imho.

[Shorty]

On 6/2/2018 at 1:27 AM, fburns said:

 

I wonder if paying by the hour, like some people do for a bowling lane for instance, would make a difference? 

It would be wonderful. The group that expects to play a round in 4 hours pays for two extra hours they didn't want because the jerks in front of them took 6 hours. Sounds fair.

[fburns]

Good point minus the sarcasm.

[iacas]

I left the course today on the 12th tee when it took me 2:40 to get there.

Went to the range.

[freshmanUTA]

Considering that the course I work at has had almost 10% of its members from last year not come back due to rounds constantly taking 5+ hours, no I do not think faster play is killing the game. In fact, many new players manage to play quickly because they are embarrassed. Lets be honest, at least once a year everyone encounters a guy who goes out and can barely get the ball off the ground, and still manages to play each hole in under 10 minutes. I see quite a few players who are new and struggling to hit the ball, they let players through when they need and try to avoid looking for balls for 5+ minutes because they don't want to hold people up because they're bad. Everyone has seen someone who plays like this.

The problem really arises when there are certain foursomes of players. Some of these players seem to take an astronomical amount of time to play, commonly playing 18 holes in 4.5+ hours. For some reason they take minute long pre shot routines, not playing ready golf, take years on the greens, etc. Just based on the short time I've worked at my course the demographic can be summed up to 40-60 year old men who play in foursomes and shoot between 78 and 85. These guys think they're the embodiment of tiger and will wait around on par 5's for the green to clear when they're 230 out to go for it in 2 just to mishit their ball and end up 40 yards short. They play with no real plan of action and decide what to do right when they stand behind their ball. 

Faster play wouldn't hurt the game. It's a misconception that being "rushed" would make you swing worse, play worse, etc. In fact, I've noticed that when I tell slow groups to speed up play, it helps players shoot better because all they think about is how far to hit their ball and what shot they want to play, and what to avoid. Something like; "155 yards, bunker left so aim more right."

Side note: We've been telling golfers that when you are on a par 3, or par 5, when your entire group finally gets their balls on the green you should wave on the group behind you to hit. After they hit, you can finish putting and move on. It helps avoid backups on the tee boxes because groups tend to take more time on the greens than anywhere else since not everyone will be on the green when they arrive. It has really helped speed up play.

Edited June 2, 2018 by freshmanUTA

[Fourputt]

On 6/1/2018 at 9:27 AM, fburns said:

I agree with you about rounds being shorter "back in the day". The overall length was shorter, most people walked directly to their ball, greens were not nearly as fast or undulated, sand traps were at least half as many and half as deep, and it seemed that the course was more reward than risk. I see both sides of this issue. I understand that there are more important things to do in life than play golf. I am just concerned that in our effort to speed up the game we may be taking something wonderful out of it. To me the issue of slow play can be found partially in  course design (all the things mentioned), people playing the wrong tees, the speed of the greens. modeling the slow play of professionals, and beginners playing stroke play to get a final score.

I wonder if paying by the hour, like some people do for a bowling lane for instance, would make a difference? Probably would just cause more tension out on the course. Thanks for responding. I don't want to beat this issue to death. I am sure it has been talked about many times. I just hope we can balance speed of play and still keep the "wonder" in this wonderful game.

The real problem with pace of play is that it has been very gradually slowing down for most of the last 40-45 years.  Much of the issue has come from crowding on weekends.  I feel the too many younger players grew up thinking that 4+ hours is "normal", because that is what they have been exposed to all of their lives.  When you have always played your average round in about 4½ hours, being told that 3½ hours is a good pace is simply perceived as some speed golf a**hole being trying to be superior by mouthing impossibilities.  These people really do not know HOW to play any faster. 

It doesn't require everyone on the course to be of that mindset.  Just one group out of every 4 or 5 will clog a course to a trickle.  I can be with the fastest players on the course, but that doesn't matter if there are 3 or 4 of those groups scattered ahead of me - my pace will be their pace.  This is still largely a matter of retraining players and course management so that they believe and will actually buy into the idea of a sub 4 hour round.  

Standing around worrying about who is away is a big peeve of mine, and I feel one of the biggest contributors to slow play.  This was never an issue for me, even as a relatively new player.  I've pretty much always played ready golf, so when it started being promoted as philosophy, I actually couldn't understand why anyone would have an issue with it.  Seems natural to me to just play when I'm ready to play.  I've been known to be a bit gruff with someone who continues this sort of delay even after it's been stated that we are playing ready golf.  For me even have to to say it out loud is sort of baffling - it should be automatic. 

Go to your ball as directly as possible.  Be ready to play without delay. If the hole is open and you are ready to play and won't be interfering with another, then play the damn ball.  If we all do this, slow play will not be an issue.  

On 6/1/2018 at 10:06 PM, Shorty said:

That is not true. Totally wrong. Sorry. They might THINK they are, but they aren't. In every other way I agree with you.

You pay your green fees and adapt to the mores and norms of the game. That means anything but playing at your own pace of play. Paying green fees does not give you the right to be selfish.

Imagine being behind a group on 6 hour pace, commenting on it and them saying "we are entitled to play at this pace because, like you, we have paid our green fees."

By the same token, a pair on their own on a 3 hour pace is not entitled to hustle their way through the whole field.

On courses with which I"m most familiar, players are entitled to play at their own pace as long as that pace is within the parameters of the pace of play policy set by the course.  If that policy is 4:30, then they simply don't have to play faster.  If the course management tries to push players who are playing within that time frame, then they need to revisit their policy or they should not push players who are playing to it. 

There is a real problem with that philosophy, in that if one of the early groups plays with that perfectly proper mindset, then nobody behind them can play any faster.  The odds are very good that everyone behind them will be just a bit slower by trying to keep some separation, thus exacerbating an already slow round.

[Blackjack Don]

On 6/1/2018 at 5:57 AM, fburns said:

I long to return to the game I knew as a child. But I am not sure it really exists anymore, except in my mind.

"Things ain't like they were in the old days. They never were." Will Rogers

If we judge everything in the present moment compare with the sweet, sweet days of our youth, it's no wonder we aren't having fun when we "play."

Isn't it more likely they decided it was too hard?

[saevel25]

First thing my dad did was to get me to take less time in the pre shot routine, and also how to play ready golf better. 

Golf could be sped up by a good amount if people realized they don't have to be shuttled around in the cart 100% of the time. Example, since my dad hits before I do more often. We'll go to his ball, he'll grab his club and I'll drive off to mine. Once I hit, I go pick him up. He has no problem walking up the fairway while I am hitting my shot. You do this every par 4 and par 5 and it adds up to saving time. 

Oh, Faster play is not hurting the game. 

 

[JonMA1]

I've posted this before but I think it's worth repeating.

I've always tried to play ready golf and thought of myself as being fairly fast when that was needed. But when I played in the Michigan outing last year, I learned something walking with @Braivo and @MSchott. 

When approaching a green, they would both position their push carts in a more logical position than what I had always done. Where I'd pull my cart up close to my ball, on most of the holes they would position theirs so that when they exited the green, the carts would usually be waiting on the way to the next tee .

It seemed so obvious that I felt a bit foolish for never having considered it. It was far more efficient without any extra effort or sense of being rushed.

My point is that there are a lot of small, incremental improvements that can be made to save time here and there without the round becoming a sprint. Also, if the people they play with aren't putting in any effort towards saving time or playing more efficiently, what chance do new players have of learning ready golf?

[sjduffers]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:42 AM, jsgolfer said:

Unfortunately most people are just not ready to play when it's their turn.  Just think of it this way: a brisk walk is about 3 mph, so lets say on the course, you're carrying clubs and you walk 2 mph.  At Springfield G&CC, the back tees are almost 6,800 yds, which is about 3.8 miles of golf holes and then we tack on another half a mile for walking between tees, etc.  So that's about about 4.3 miles.  At a slow walk, this should take you a little more than 2 hours, which then gives 4 people two hours (or about 18 seconds each to hit 400 shots (100/person).  And if you are in a cart, the time should drop dramatically.  And if you don't think 18 seconds is a long time to pick a club and hit it, have someone time you, its a long damn time.  And just think, it you're the closest to the green, you have the other players 18 seconds to figure it out.  And if you have to wait for them to hit before you even start you're routine, I'm sorry, you're slow.

I'll start by saying that I agree with you. 18 seconds per shot is more than enough time: at least it ought to be.  Then again, when I am particularly annoyed by the slowness of some random people I get paired with, I time them, from when it's their turn to when they make contact. You wouldn't believe how many times they are above 1 minute!  Sometimes more for a first putt. SMH.

But I'd counter your argument a bit by saying that walking a 6300 yds golf course is more around 5.5 to 6 miles than 4.3. You forget all the detours we make such as going to aid somebody look for their ball, put the push cart (or the golf bag) on the proper side of the green and then walk back, the many places were a straight line is not really an option (crossing creeks, barrancas, etc...), the detour for the head, tree watering not withstanding... At least, that's what my phone's built-in pedometer shows for nearly every round that I walk, whether totally flat or somewhat hilly: around 14,000 to 16,000 steps.  That said, recently I walked a flat course during a break between showers (I looked at the radar ahead of time): there were a grand total of 3 people on the course, including me, according to the guy in the pro-shop, and I finished in 2 hours without rushing, after stopping for about 10-15 minutes to let a shower pass through.

Yes, people are f*ing slow. What's worse is that they don't give a damn, even when prodded gently (or even less gently)...

[Moxley]

To the OP, yes, I think there is an issue that overzealous emphasis on faster play can lead to problems, just as slow play is also leading to problems (and, on balance ,is probably the bigger problem). Neither group is tolerant of the other, making it difficult for golfers to resolve pace of play issues on the course in an amiable way. 

I've always appreciated the need for adherence to ready golf (from all golfers, but especially those who are slow because they aren't very good), but it's a shame when people are hassled just because they need to take more shots.

I've been in groups with beginners or high cappers, where the group behind see a bad shot or two and then start asking to play through (despite there not being room in front). Although I can understand why this happens (I also play a lot of rounds where I'm the one being held up by a slow group), because the groups who take a lot of shots are often (but not always) the ones with the least awareness, it's a shame that it can spoil the experience of beginners who genuinely try to play at a decent pace. 



 

[Buckeyebowman]

Faster play can do nothing but help the game. Back in the day, when I walked and carried, I could play 9 in an hour and 20 if no one held me up. I played a lot of twilight golf back then. So much so that the people selling me the greens fee would ask if I thought I could finish in time. I would tell them "no problem"!

Plus, I think some of the gizmos introduced into golf slow things up, like GPS devices, One time, my buddy forgot to turn his Garmin watch on, and was going to stand in the fairway while the thing located satellites! I told him I knew how far the shot was and hit anyway! Made a rather nice stroke, too! Besides, I'm not that precise in my ball striking to let a 2 or 3 yard difference change my mind! 

Also, I think that too many guys are influenced far too much by the PGA! All of the palaver that goes on between player and caddy on the Tour would absolutely paralyze me! I'm not that good! Yet, too many guys think that taking more time will make them better.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It usually makes them worse!

Edited June 4, 2018 by Buckeyebowman

[Moxley]

8 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Faster play can do nothing but help the game. Back in the day, when I walked and carried, I could play 9 in an hour and 20 if no one held me up. I played a lot of twilight golf back then. So much so that the people selling me the greens fee would ask if I thought I could finish in time. I would tell them "no problem"!

Plus, I think some of the gizmos introduced into golf slow things up, like GPS devices, One time, my buddy forgot to turn his Garmin watch on, and was going to stand in the fairway while the thing located satellites! I told him I knew how far the shot was and hit anyway! Made a rather nice stroke, too! Besides, I'm not that precise in my ball striking to let a 2 or 3 yard difference change my mind! 

Also, I think that too many guys are influenced far too much by the PGA! All of the palaver that goes on between player and caddy on the Tour would absolutely paralyze me! I'm not that good! Yet, too many guys think that taking more time will make them better.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It usually makes them worse!

Although these devices can be overused ( e.g. when players are right by the markers, or by players who can't control their distance) , they have the potential to speed up play, and I think efforts to discourage them in the name of slow play are misguided. It varies from course to course, but virtually all the greens on my home course have bushes or trees pretty close to the back of the green, so it won't help speed up play if a player hits into there. This probably applies even more to casual golfers, who might not necessarily know their courses as well as the more regular golfers who play several times a week. 

Same applies to things like putting , a player who doesn't get the chance to read the green might leave a 12 foot putt 5 feet long or short, and will then have another tricky putt to make. 

It might not work for you, but pre shot routines can help some players play better - the point is that they should be doing as much of it as possible before their turn, rather than cutting them out.