Putting with the Flagstick In? - New 2019 Rules

[rehmwa]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

This.

And, this:

I've yet to see anything suggesting you should take the flagstick out, unless it's said by one opponent to another. 🙂

Quite a bit better as a controlled experiment here vs the other videos of just jokers hitting putts and commenting.  though the 1000 ball experiment should have cleared each ball before rolling the subsequent one (the visual of the two stuck in edge was.....).  Still, best review yet I've seen.

I wish they would have shown the shot distribution pattern for the segment of the experiment where the ball missed due to rolling too fast (they should do that for putts of a single speed group, and then repeat in sets of increasing speed).  The comparison must be quite dramatic.

Another confirmation would be a series of higher speed rolls that are center aimed vs degrees of off center...rather than just the natural variation from the roll over turf

The last comment about 'helping to aim' is subjective, didn't fit in with the good experimental summary up to that point.  Unless they actually took data over several golfers to confirm.....which I doubt

Edited January 4, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Quite a bit better as a controlled experiment here vs the other videos of just jokers hitting putts and commenting.  though the 1000 ball experiment should have cleared each ball before rolling the subsequent one (the visual of the two stuck in edge was.....).  Still, best review yet I've seen.

I did a study, too, with moving each ball, and rolling balls at a cup from various angles and to various parts of the cup at various speeds (only balls that could touch the flagstick, though). Rolled over 1,000 balls and it took many hours, controlling the speed and everything… and just summarized the results because it was pretty clear.

At low speeds, no real advantage (nor disadvantage), and an increasingly large advantage the faster the ball is rolling. Clearly.

17 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

The last comment about 'helping to aim' is subjective, didn't fit in with the good experimental summary up to that point.  Unless they actually took data over several golfers to confirm.....which I doubt

It is yet another advantage though.

Sometimes, you'll even be able to use the shadow to help you aim.

[rehmwa]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

I did a study, too, with moving each ball, and rolling balls at a cup from various angles and to various parts of the cup at various speeds (only balls that could touch the flagstick, though). Rolled over 1,000 balls and it took many hours, controlling the speed and everything… and just summarized the results because it was pretty clear.

 

^^^^^

thanks - since the bigger deniers get caught up on "glancing" blows, etc.  this is good input (and probably noted earlier in the thread and I simply forgot it)

 

as for my 'aim' comment.  I didn't contest that it could an advantage for some (or most).  just that it's a different class of comment vs the rest of that excellent video.  (i.e., It didn't fit in without showing a data set/experiment to validate the observation, and that it's an advantage by player perception/application vs advantage due to clear physics)

Edited January 4, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

 as for my 'aim' comment.  I didn't contest that it could an advantage for some (or most).  just that it's a different class of comment vs the rest of that excellent video.  (i.e., It didn't fit in without showing a data set/experiment to validate the observation, and that it's an advantage by player perception/application vs advantage due to clear physics)

I get your point, but the video was "leave it in or not." That meant one big data point… and a supporting one that didn't need a big test.

[rehmwa]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

I get your point, but the video was "leave it in or not." That meant one big data point… and a supporting one that didn't need a big test.

Probably - I think he was just throwing a bone to the watchers that aren't swayed by 'facts', or 'experimental proof'....  🤔

(I'll never be good at politics, most people seem to put more value into what they "Feel" vs facts and proof.  I am in complete denial about that.  So tossing a bonus subjective support point might bother me, but, frankly, it's always good policy to reach the widest audience.)

Edited January 4, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

That's the video from last night after the first round in Hawaii.

They chopped it up a bit, though. They more than that.

Quote

 

“I feel like I maximized my potential on that,” DeChambeau said. “Especially on 16 today, where it’s kind of blowing downwind, five percent slope, straight downhill, you want that pin in to help. So that’s what I kind of did and utilized it to my advantage. So I felt like for the most part I needed the pin to be in and it went in and it was a very nice help.”

He was playing with Dustin Johnson, who probably spent less time studying the modern rules than DeChambeau spent picking his shirt this morning. Johnson told him before the round he was cool with the whole flagstick thing and to have DeChambeau’s caddie Tim Tucker just handle the flag all day to avoid confusion.

 

Bryson, after the round.

[DeadMan]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

The only time to not putt with the flagstick in when you otherwise would is if the flagstick is leaning so much a ball won't actually fit between the edge of the hole and the flagstick.

In other words, that'll never happen on the PGA Tour, and will rarely happen in the general world of golf.

Otherwise, if the flag is leaning toward you, that's an even bigger advantage. It knocks the ball DOWN and INTO the hole.

Do you think there's sometimes where the flag is whipping around in the cup where you'd remove it? So if it's really high winds it might be a negative because it could hit the ball as its whipping around and knock the ball away?

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Johnson told him before the round he was cool with the whole flagstick thing and to have DeChambeau’s caddie Tim Tucker just handle the flag all day to avoid confusion.

DJ is a national treasure. "Cool with the whole flagstick thing." I bet that was his actual wording, too. 😆😆

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Do you think there's sometimes where the flag is whipping around in the cup where you'd remove it? So if it's really high winds it might be a negative because it could hit the ball as its whipping around and knock the ball away?

Asked and answered… many times now. 🙂

Putting with the Flagstick In | Lowest Score Wins .com

---

Dave Pelz published an article today in which he says this: The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in. The hits just keep on comin…

Take it out if it's whipping around and smashing side to side.

[DeadMan]

Thanks. That's going to be pretty rare, though. Most of the time when the flag is doing that, you're not going to be playing golf. I'm really struggling to find more than a couple of times when I've played and the flag is truly whipping around.

[iacas]

@NatalieB and I didn't take the flagstick out once today. And none of these were re-filmed to show the ball going in or anything.

[mvmac]

 

5 hours ago, iacas said:

He was playing with Dustin Johnson, who probably spent less time studying the modern rules than DeChambeau spent picking his shirt this morning.

😂😂😂

6 hours ago, iacas said:

I've yet to see anything suggesting you should take the flagstick out, unless it's said by one opponent to another. 🙂

I'm trying to get the word out the best I can at my club. The people that are against it basically say that it doesn't feel or look right, the flag being in makes the hole smaller and how many times they've seen the flag deflect a good shot from going in.

Tried to explain how all that is false and why but if people aren't open to learning then they are going to stick to their ways. Until they see me doing it and holing a bunch of putts 😉

I think that's basically what's going to happen, you'll slowly start seeing players catch on, then it will trickle down to amateurs who are good players and become more accepted. Kind of like golfers using radar launch monitors, belly putters, 460 drivers, ball flight laws, better understanding of stats like strokes-gained, etc.

[ChetlovesMer]

I found another advantage to leaving the flag in. 
Today I was left with this birdie putt on the 8th hole.

The shadow of the flagstick made a perfect aiming line. I judged the putt to break about one cup to the left. So, all I had to do was roll the ball parallel to the shadow of the flag. Sure enough, it rolled in for birdie. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

 

Tried to explain how all that is false and why but if people aren't open to learning then they are going to stick to their ways. Until they see me doing it and holing a bunch of putts 😉

 

I've talked about this with one of my good friends, who insists that the flag hurts a lot more than it helps, "in his experience".  So one of our playing partners clanks one off the flag, destined to go 20 feet past, but it stops a foot away.  I say "Remember to add that one to your 'experience'" and he said it doesn't count, because it didn't happen to his ball.  I refrained from calling him a moron, but just barely.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I say "Remember to add that one to your 'experience'" and he said it doesn't count, because it didn't happen to his ball.

“Learn from the mistakes of others—you can’t live long enough to make them all yourself.”

[ncates00]

DeChambeau is leaving it in and is leading the field in putting. Chamblee is talking about how everyone should. Makes sense. It’s the rule and it helps so do it. 

[Shindig]

54 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Chamblee is talking about how everyone should. 

Best argument I've seen for taking the pin out and keeping it out.  

(kidding, of course)

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, Shindig said:

Best argument I've seen for taking the pin out and keeping it out.  

(kidding, of course)

He only thinks Tiger should leave the pin out.

[colin007]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:25 PM, phillyk said:

I found it distracting at first but after playing with it for a bit, I feel like I can be slightly more aggressive with the big knee breakers because there is a backstop.  If anything, it is just giving me a bit more confidence.

Yeah, I definitely agree. And it's absolutely an aiming point as well, on a four footer you know is straight, you can see the stick in your peripheral, just ram it home. I love this rule change.