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Handicaps Are Just a System That Makes Bad Golfers Think They Can Compete

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3 hours ago, FLOG4 said:

Horse racing is horses and varies weights a few pounds...But it is horses..

Send a horse out of the starting gate without a jockey and see what you get. Send a jockey out of the starting gate without a horse and see what you get.

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22 hours ago, FLOG4 said:

When you play real golf....you play, you post your score...end of story. When you play make believe golf. You play you post your score figure out your net based on handicap. And tell your story about how you won the net division....A real golfer has no interest in competing in net anything. Ya gotta love golf where really bad players pat themselves on the back and pronounce their winning. You see Monday to Friday I shoot 90...But come Saturday miraculously I shoot 80......Hey I won the tennis championship at my club as my opponent only got one serve and had to cover the doubles line said no tennis player ever.….Ya gotta love golf. Ha   

You have your handicap posted at 8. Why not just play at scratch? Better yet, turn pro. I've lost to guys with higher handicaps. I just felt like I had to play better. How do you feel when you are playing a 2, and you get 6 shots? Do you tell him no thanks, we'll just play even up?

Edited by Sandy Divot

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11 hours ago, FLOG4 said:

So back to the original premise...Name one sport....just one....that has a handicap system for competitive play....Other than Golf. Darts, Horse Shoes, Billiards, Tennis, Boxing, Fencing, Running, Wrestling, Badminton, Table Tennis, Pickle Ball, Curling, Archery, Shooting, Swimming, Bocce Ball, Cycling, Diving, Skating, Hand Ball, Gymnastics,  jai Alai, Water Skiing, Skiing, Kayaking, Karate, Judo, Raquet Ball, Foosball, Shuffleboard, Skateboarding, Rodeo, Squash, Luge, Rowing, Trampolining......So why is it that Golf has a handicap system which allows bad players to think they can compete with good players.....When there isn't one dang other sport which does this....I understand the bit about it allows Jane to compete with Bill.....Got it. But in competitive play with many times much dinero on the line....There is Golf with it's handicap.

Maybe just maybe the handicap system lessens ones desire to improve....Don't want to give up any of those strokes I'm getting. In fact I want to get a few more...Ha

Or maybe that is why Golf is the best game there is. It is maddening. 

If you think you're getting gipped by players who you thought were lesser than you, stop complaining about someone else's handicap and play with better players.  Sounds to me like you just want to pad your ego after you got beat by some sandbagger.  It's funny, you're complaining about handicaps because you got the wrong end of the deal.  Deal with it.  Play gross against better players and you'll be begging to get your strokes back.  Play your game and quit worrying about everyone else.

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16 hours ago, FLOG4 said:

So back to the original premise...Name one sport....just one....that has a handicap system for competitive play....Other than Golf.

The richest running race in Australia, the Stawell Gift is a handicap race. Horse races are handicapped.

How about we just wipe handicaps from golf and rank everyone's scores for each day. Do you think you'd rank in the top 10,000 in your state with your 81? Grow up, man.

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Please feel free to come to my home club and play any stroke-play tournament, and refuse any net prizes.  We'll only have 60 or 65 players.  I'm a 4 handicap, I'll win a few bucks on occasion, for 3rd or 4th gross. You, assuming you're a real 8, thanks for contributing.

Edited by DaveP043

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Please feel free to come to my home club and play any stroke-play tournament, and refuse any net prizes.  We'll only have 60 or 65 players.  I'm a 4 handicap, I'll win a few bucks on occasion, for 3rd or 4th gross. You, assuming you're a real 8, thanks for contributing.

Hey....You're missing the point! He wants to beat players that are older, more feeble and less able. He doesn't want to compete against people who are better than him, that wouldn't be fair!!😃 Handicaps are fair for him when he beats someone with a nett score better than someone who beats him by 10 off the stick. He has a very equitable approach to the game. :-)

Edited by leftybutnotPM

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Please feel free to come to my home club and play any stroke-play tournament, and refuse any net prizes.  We'll only have 60 or 65 players.  I'm a 4 handicap, I'll win a few bucks on occasion, for 3rd or 4th gross. You, assuming you're a real 8, thanks for contributing.

Yep, all the low handicappers at my course will give you all the action you want. Some will probably even negotiate better terms.

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I guess my only comment here is I object to the sandbagger label.  There are some, but some just play better when there is more money on the line than the usual $5 Nassau.  They don't cheat, as sandbagger would imply, they just are more focused when more is on the line.

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2 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I guess my only comment here is I object to the sandbagger label.  There are some, but some just play better when there is more money on the line than the usual $5 Nassau.  They don't cheat, as sandbagger would imply, they just are more focused when more is on the line.

It could also be that they don't do any good practice, but just get better as the season goes on because they play 2-3x a week. My dad does not sandbag, but he will shoot in the low 80's consistently towards summer and the fall versus shooting in the high 80's because he needs to play a lot to be consistent. He's not sandbagging.

People have to remember that handicap means you only beat your handicap 20% of the time. It's not an actual indicator of ability (scoring average). Hopefully the tournament uses USGA handicaps. Some leagues have their own wonky systems that may or may not have some negatives.

 

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Obviously there is a very big difference between truly competitive golf and the brand that the majority of us play with our handicap competitions. Pointing out the difference seems silly. We are all very well aware of it. Nobody ever won C Flight and melted into tears on the 18th green.

There also really is a significant problem with sandbagging in some places anyway. I've talked to multiple people that quit some of the area clubs/associations (including my own) because they believed people were cheating. Being wrapped up in my own business, I have no idea how much it really happens, but there's definitely that perception that some people fill GHIN with a lot of inflated scores.

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I'm a 20.9 (right now). I play a 9 hole monday night men's. Its a modified stable ford system. Sometimes I come in the top three for that nights net. I'll pick up a belt thats been in there shop to long, or maybe a 5 year old shirt that hasn't sold. I'll shoot anywhere from 44 to 52 on any given night. The top two guys carry a +2. They win every night's gross. I have no visions of grandeur, no thought I am better than those +2's.  But that group lets us all compete , have some fun, meet some nice folks and pick up some trinkets and trash.I only play fund raising tourneys. I think thats where the sandbaggers really shine. 

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sure, absolutely true.  and....so what?

by definition it allows others to compete, that's the whole point 

suck it up cupcake

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55 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's not an actual indicator of ability (scoring average). 

But is scoring average an indicator of ability? If a player shoots a 72,73,91,94...that’s an average of 82-83 but his ability is to shoot 72?

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5 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

But is scoring average an indicator of ability? If a player shoots a 72,73,91,94...that’s an average of 82-83 but his ability is to shoot 72? 

You are giving an example with a small sample size to support your logic. I'd be hard pressed for you to find someone who throughout a season would yo-yo like that. For the most part they should be with in +/- a few strokes of a certain average depending on course.

No, he doesn't have the ability to shoot a 72 because his average is not a 72. He happen to get lucky that day. I played against a guy who would shoot high 40's for 9 holes 80% of the time. There was this 1 in 10 chance that he would just shoot in the high 30's and you'll get demolished. His ability is not that 1 in 10.

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@FLOG4, you got worked by some jerk who took advantage of the handicap system. That sucks. I can understand you being a mood to vent. Even online venting on a golf forum can be very cathartic.

Having said that, golf IS a game that rewards improvement. So, it sounds like the guy is working his way back into form. (Or maybe he really did just work the system since he complained of playing badly even though it was his best round since coming back to the game.) 

Golf is a great sport, but about an hour after it was invented the first cheaters started playing. About an hour after the handicap system was invented the first jerks started trying to find ways to "work" the system. I play a tournament every May in which everyone plays against their handicap. There are no Gross winners only Net winners. It's a great tournament and a lot of fun. It also has a total purse which will be around $30K (We all put $500 in.) So, you could imagine that everyone expects the rules to be played upheld. One thing they do is to get into this tournament somebody who's in it already has to vouch for you and your handicap. If you get caught working the system or cheating in some other way, you don't get invited back and neither does the guy who vouches for you. In the more than a decade I've been playing the tournament it's only happened once. 

My advice, smile and shake his hand this year. Work hard on your game, come back and kick his ass next year. 

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22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

No, he doesn't have the ability to shoot a 72 because his average is not a 72. He happen to get lucky that day. I played against a guy who would shoot high 40's for 9 holes 80% of the time. There was this 1 in 10 chance that he would just shoot in the high 30's and you'll get demolished. His ability is not that 1 in 10.

That doesn't really make sense to me. I have the ability to drive the ball 290-300+ yards and over my last 3 rounds I hit 7 drives over 290 yds, even though I average closer to 265-270 for my drives. Clearly I have the ability to drive it 290+ even though that isn't what my average is.

I think there is a difference between having the ability to do something once (like shot a 72 for one round) and having the ability to do something consistently (averaging a 72). 

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7 minutes ago, klineka said:

That doesn't really make sense to me.

When someone asks, "what is your ability to play golf", It's what you are currently able to do consistently.

I'm talking about the proficiency use of the word ability.

This is why people have phrases like, "What is their ceiling?" There is a differentiation between the use of word ability.

10 minutes ago, klineka said:

I have the ability to drive the ball 290-300+ yards and over my last 3 rounds I hit 7 drives over 290 yds, even though I average closer to 265-270 for my drives. Clearly I have the ability to drive it 290+ even though that isn't what my average is.

You have shown ability to hit the ball 290-300 yards. That isn't your actual current ability in terms of being proficient at it. I would say you have shown potential to hit it that far, but lack overall consistency that would be more indicated in your average.

Also, driving distance is tough because it can drastically change depending on course conditions, which is outside anything you have control over. The absurd amount of water Ohio has gotten the past few months has not helped my average 😉

 

 

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I don't agree Matt. Ability is defined as "possession of the means or skill to do something." Doesn't mean they can do it every time, but a reasonable amount of time: the 50% of the time that their scores count for handicap certainly would apply (or 40% in 2020).

I'm not taking it to some extreme where I'm saying, for example, that I have the "ability" to shoot 54 or even 62 or something (64 is my low from the yellow tees at WW, the one round I played up there). But a reasonable amount of the time, which is about what the handicap index measures.

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