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Driving for Show, Putting for Dough, or Is It?


Mr Puddle
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Here's how I think this works.  At one time, long, long ago, everyone on the planet thought the earth was flat.  Then better, more scientific information was released (and published in National Geographic).

Also, a long, long time ago... 70 years ago or so, people started using the phrase "Drive for show, putt for dough".  And we all bought into it.  Then, some Broadie guy discovered the methodology/analytics of "Strokes gained" and other stuff and declared that driving the golf ball long and well gains you more strokes than the short game.  I believe his findings were first published in his book "Every Shot Counts".  With an excerpt in National Geographic, of course.

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:52 PM, edomingox said:

I can tell you who is garbage.  All those instructors trying to teach a specific golfer's swing instead of working with the swing the player already has.

 

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I still don't know who you're talking about here, except that you're definitely not talking about me.

 

I can tell you there ARE those RARE golf instructors who try to teach a specific swing. But @iacas isn't one of them. If you ARE seeing one of those guys, go find somebody else. 

In reality the golf instructors who teaches a very specific swing are pretty few and far between. It's my belief (having had a few REALLY GOOD golf instructors over my golfing life) that what happens is a golf instructor will watch your swing and then they formulate in their minds how they can optimize YOUR swing. Rarely will you get there in one step. You may have a bunch of things that are compensating for a compensation, because of a compensation you've been making.

So the swing coach will have to help you work on it in stages. You work on one piece of your swing at a time. Sometimes the student perceives this as regression. The student gets frustrated. The student PERCIEVES the teacher as trying to fit them into this "specific swing" instead of "working with what the player already has." In reality the coach is trying to take them down a path to improvement. The problem is the student may or may not see the big picture. 

Now here's what the good swing coaches do. They COMMUNICATE with you. They let you know that there are pieces you need to work on. You may not be able to fix everything in one session. The instructor may fix one thing and because of the other parts you've been compensating with for years, your game actually gets worse. A GOOD coach will let you know that's okay. We'll fix one thing at a time. A good coach communicates the big picture with you. Some students and some coaches communicate better than others. I've know guys who go see swing coaches and they want an instant fix. I hear this from them "My brother-in-law was a 35 handicap and went to a swing guru who had him move his thumb like this and now he's a scratch golfer, that coach used what he already had....blah blah blah." Okay, but if your grip, face control, attack angle, path, plane, and footwork are ALL terrible, you are going to have do a bunch of work before moving your thumb is going to make much of a difference. 

Golf is HARD! Coaching golf swings is also hard. There are certain pieces that all good golf swings have. Whether you swing like Cameron Champ or whether you swing like David Toms. 

It's funny because you never hear this complaint with other sports. If I teach somebody the fundamentals of how to hit a baseball or how throw a football, they never complain. "Why can't you use what I already have?!?!" 

Listen, these are the fundamentals. If you want to be good at something, you are going to have to master the fundamentals. I don't care if it's hitting a golf ball, shooting skeet, or playing the violin. 

My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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On 10/2/2019 at 5:47 AM, DennisMiller said:

Does anyone feel like it might matter where you play? For example, sometimes I play Palmetto, that's pretty open and the rough isn't very penal. There are few trees and a shot in the rough is often preferable to the fairway on a long hole where it takes me a hybrid or 3 wood to have any chance of getting to the green, even from forward tees.

On the other hand, Killian Greens, where I play most, runs through a subdivision of homes and forest land behind the homes. Off the fairway there is almost always going to make you play out with little chance to get on the green.

I'd say at Palmetto, I putt for dough and at Killain Greens, to putt for dough, I definitely need to drive for show first.

I have two courses about 5 minutes from my home. (When I am home). #1 winds through a housing track, #2 plays through a wide open desert. 

#1 inhibits my long game a little. Miss a fairway by much, and your ball is in someone's back yard. Back yards might have people in them, and they all have breakable window glass facing the the course. My pitching, chipping, and putting game saves me strokes on this course, which is the course I play the most of the two. Probably by 3-1.

#2 being a wide open course, although a little longer, allows me to not worry about accuracy, and/or public safety. Missing a fairway, even by alot,  is no big deal. There is usually still a clear path towards the green. I don't lose many strokes with my full swing on this course. The one's I do lose are due to my own lack of distance. I average lower scores (1-2 strokes) on this course.

My short game average is about the same on both courses

I don't play course #2 that much only because of the easier, convience of #1. That and #2 is usually subject to the prevailing winds, and natural wind breaks are sparse. Especially on the greens. 

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A whole bunch of Tour Edge golf stuff...... :beer:

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On 10/10/2019 at 10:52 AM, edomingox said:

Don't know why you're hating on the golf sidekick by calling him hot garbage.  He's not really teaching anything, but he advocates for stress free golf, which is what I would love to play.  I can tell you who is garbage.  All those instructors trying to teach a specific golfer's swing instead of working with the swing the player already has.

so from the 1st video, the pro saved the 20 handicapper 5.5 shots.

with the 2nd video, the +6 and +17 comparison, that's an 11 shot difference.  

Even as a one time experiment, it seems pretty evident that short game is more important than long game.  I think that is why we even have the saying "Drive for show and putt for dough" in the first place.  I've seen more books on putting and chipping than I do for driving.  Then again, I also see more books on the mental game as well.  

If I was to chose to have either Tiger's long game or short game, I'll take his short game.  Putts wins tournaments.  I seen plenty of videos of Tiger doing just that.

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Danny    In my :ping: Hoofer Tour golf bag on my :clicgear: 8.0 Cart

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On 10/10/2019 at 9:52 AM, edomingox said:

Don't know why you're hating on the golf sidekick by calling him hot garbage.  He's not really teaching anything, but he advocates for stress free golf, which is what I would love to play.  I can tell you who is garbage.  All those instructors trying to teach a specific golfer's swing instead of working with the swing the player already has.

so from the 1st video, the pro saved the 20 handicapper 5.5 shots.

with the 2nd video, the +6 and +17 comparison, that's an 11 shot difference.  

Even as a one time experiment, it seems pretty evident that short game is more important than long game.  I think that is why we even have the saying "Drive for show and putt for dough" in the first place.  I've seen more books on putting and chipping than I do for driving.  Then again, I also see more books on the mental game as well.  

If I was to chose to have either Tiger's long game or short game, I'll take his short game.  Putts wins tournaments.  I seen plenty of videos of Tiger doing just that.

Here's a little experiment. Hit your tee shot with the longest club that you know will get it into the fairway. Say for example your 3 wood, your 3 hybrid, whatever. Say for example you hit it 210 yds. Now when you get to your ball, hit your approach shot. After you've done that walk up another 60 yds., drop another ball, now hit a 2nd approach shot. This will replicate where you would have been had you hit 270 yd drive. Which approach shot had a better result? Which drive would you rather have hit? Do this for 9 holes.

On 420 yd par 4s a lot of players end up hitting 3W or 3H approach shots. If they could only hit their drivers further. 

Crossfield pointed this out in a 2018 video commenting about when he played against Lee Westwood. Crossfield was hitting his 5H into the greens while Westwood was hitting 8 and 9 irons. Needless to say Crossfield lost the matches.

You see a lot of books on the short game and putting because it's the easiest part of the game to get quick results. You can go out on the practice green a few times and almost eliminate 3 putting by learning how to lag putt and read the breaks in the greens. Just practice lag putting and 3' putts. Practice 3' putts until you don't miss and get good at distance control. Two putting isn't a bad thing. Then practice chipping and pitching. It's not that hard to get good enough to where you won't blow up your round there. It just takes learning a technique and some practice. Putting is easy compared to hitting the green from 200 yds away.

It takes a lot more work to get the long game solid, and most people don't have that kind of time. Drive for show, putt for dough is a myth. 

  1. Practice your approach shots over 100 yds. - most important
  2. Practice with your driver. - 2nd most important
  3. Practice your short game shots inside 100 yds.
  4. Practice your putting.

You'll see stuff how pros practice a ton of time with their wedges and with their drivers. Not much with their mid-irons. Remember - on a 440 yd par 4, a 310 yd drive leaves only 110 yds.

I urge you to pick up a copy of Lowest Score Wins. 

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On 10/18/2019 at 7:56 PM, DrvFrShow said:

Here's a little experiment. Hit your tee shot with the longest club that you know will get it into the fairway. Say for example your 3 wood, your 3 hybrid, whatever. Say for example you hit it 210 yds. Now when you get to your ball, hit your approach shot. After you've done that walk up another 60 yds., drop another ball, now hit a 2nd approach shot. This will replicate where you would have been had you hit 270 yd drive. Which approach shot had a better result? Which drive would you rather have hit? Do this for 9 holes.

On 420 yd par 4s a lot of players end up hitting 3W or 3H approach shots. If they could only hit their drivers further. 

Crossfield pointed this out in a 2018 video commenting about when he played against Lee Westwood. Crossfield was hitting his 5H into the greens while Westwood was hitting 8 and 9 irons. Needless to say Crossfield lost the matches.

You see a lot of books on the short game and putting because it's the easiest part of the game to get quick results. You can go out on the practice green a few times and almost eliminate 3 putting by learning how to lag putt and read the breaks in the greens. Just practice lag putting and 3' putts. Practice 3' putts until you don't miss and get good at distance control. Two putting isn't a bad thing. Then practice chipping and pitching. It's not that hard to get good enough to where you won't blow up your round there. It just takes learning a technique and some practice. Putting is easy compared to hitting the green from 200 yds away.

It takes a lot more work to get the long game solid, and most people don't have that kind of time. Drive for show, putt for dough is a myth. 

  1. Practice your approach shots over 100 yds. - most important
  2. Practice with your driver. - 2nd most important
  3. Practice your short game shots inside 100 yds.
  4. Practice your putting.

You'll see stuff how pros practice a ton of time with their wedges and with their drivers. Not much with their mid-irons. Remember - on a 440 yd par 4, a 310 yd drive leaves only 110 yds.

I urge you to pick up a copy of Lowest Score Wins. 

Only to add, Kevin Na was the first person in history (of record) to win a tour event with a negative strokes gained tee to green stat.  It took him making over 550 ft of putts to do so.  So, not only is it incredibly rare to play great golf with terrible ballstriking, it takes nearly perfect putting performance (like on those Tiger Woods PGA Tour games where your putting stat is maxed out and you use "Tiger Vision" to read those hard putts) to overcome your lack of ballstriking.

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6 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Only to add, Kevin Na was the first person in history (of record) to win a tour event with a negative strokes gained tee to green stat.  It took him making over 550 ft of putts to do so.  So, not only is it incredibly rare to play great golf with terrible ballstriking, it takes nearly perfect putting performance (like on those Tiger Woods PGA Tour games where your putting stat is maxed out and you use "Tiger Vision" to read those hard putts) to overcome your lack of ballstriking.

Yep, -0.084 strokes T2G.

And 14.176 putting.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Yep, -0.084 strokes T2G.

And 14.176 putting.

See. Putting is the most important.🙄

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/20/2019 at 9:50 PM, Vinsk said:

See. Putting is the most important.🙄

Yeah if you can sink a bunch of putts from the parking lot. 500' of putts is mind blowing.

If you want to prove to yourself the value of Driver and approach shots find a friend who is much better or much worse than you and play 2 balls alternate shot. I did this for a league event yesterday and I was far closer to their average than mine. Hitting 190-220 approach shots on par 4s and a ton of 60 yard pitches over hazards is not good for scoring.

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On 10/20/2019 at 2:11 PM, ncates00 said:

 (like on those Tiger Woods PGA Tour games where your putting stat is maxed out and you use "Tiger Vision" to read those hard putts) 

Is there another way to play that game????

I thought that was standard procedure. 

My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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FWIW @criley4way, they were mostly being facetious. I figure you know, but just in case the next person doesn't get it…

And yeah, occasionally you can putt at an unreal level to make up for some average ballstriking. 😄

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

FWIW @criley4way, they were mostly being facetious. I figure you know, but just in case the next person doesn't get it…

And yeah, occasionally you can putt at an unreal level to make up for some average ballstriking. 😄

iacas There are are days that it can feel like putting into the Grans Canyon but there are also days where it feels like putting into a thimble.

The Alternate shot was really eye opening. Trying to score from the trees, 220 in the rough or behind a bunker to a tucked pin is hard!!! It gave me a new respect for my boring fairways and greens style.

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2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Is there another way to play that game????

I thought that was standard procedure. 

To make it more "realistic" I turned the Tiger vision, green beads, etc. off, so I wouldn't shoot ridiculous numbers under par.  After all, the ballstriking in those games once you're leveled up is already flawless; I figured at least make putting ungodly hard to make up for it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
On 27/06/2019 at 11:02 AM, iacas said:

It’s not subject to debate at this point. It’s pretty much known fact these days.

I’m not talking about any one individual of course, but generally speaking we have so much data that says exactly what I have said here as well as in my book. 

Is this based on a certain baseline for putting skill? Like is this an assumption that everyone makes 3-4 footers? 

My driving and approach is better than most ppl that break 80 but I shoot in the mid to high 80s

I'll have an errant drive which results in a triple bogey every now and then but what's killing me is the amount of 3-6 ft putts that I miss per round which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

Sure you can say, if my approach was better, I'd be putting for birdie, but my peers aren't giving up strokes on putting like I am when starting their putt from similar distances or even chipping from off the green... 

But would you still say that my practice time is best served by hitting drives and approaches? 

What's in my Bag
Driver R7 9.5 Stiff
3 Wood R7 Stiff
Irons R7 TP Stiff 3-PW
Wedge Vokey Spin Milled 52, 56, 60Putter Studio Select Newport 2.0Ball NXT
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22 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Is this based on a certain baseline for putting skill? Like is this an assumption that everyone makes 3-4 footers? 

My driving and approach is better than most ppl that break 80 but I shoot in the mid to high 80s

I'll have an errant drive which results in a triple bogey every now and then but what's killing me is the amount of 3-6 ft putts that I miss per round which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

Sure you can say, if my approach was better, I'd be putting for birdie, but my peers aren't giving up strokes on putting like I am when starting their putt from similar distances or even chipping from off the green... 

But would you still say that my practice time is best served by hitting drives and approaches? 

A654A1BB-17FF-4FBD-878B-AB8D0D1556B5.jpeg

perhaps looking at this table would be helpful. Unless putting is a GLARING weakness, I continue to work on Driving, Approaches, etc in proportions described in the Swing Thoughts forum:

I highly recommend LSW 

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8 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Is this based on a certain baseline for putting skill? Like is this an assumption that everyone makes 3-4 footers? 

My driving and approach is better than most ppl that break 80 but I shoot in the mid to high 80s

I'll have an errant drive which results in a triple bogey every now and then but what's killing me is the amount of 3-6 ft putts that I miss per round which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

Sure you can say, if my approach was better, I'd be putting for birdie, but my peers aren't giving up strokes on putting like I am when starting their putt from similar distances or even chipping from off the green... 

But would you still say that my practice time is best served by hitting drives and approaches? 

My view is that all aspects of the game have value and different golfers needs to focus on different areas of the game.  What good is a 1-Putt if you are putting for bogey because of a bad drive?  What good is a good drive if you shank your approach shot.  What good is a great approach shot if you miss makeable putts and end up par or bogey when you should have been birdie.

For me, in 2020 I averaged 3-putts 25% of the time.  That works out to 4-5 "Wasted Putts" per round.  Who out there would not like to take 4-5 strokes off their round?  I'm not saying putting is the most important thing out there, but lack of putting skill can kill a round.  Imagine being on a hole in regulation and walking off with a bogey.  I can tell you, IT SUCKS!.  This year I am devoting time to improve my putting.  I will not ignore other aspects, but putting in my #1 improvement goal this year.

As for pros and lower-HCP players I presume the dreaded 3-Putt is less frequent so for them focus on drives and approach shots may shave more strokes off their round than focusing on putting.  If they can get in the legendary 3-foot circle on most holes then they will have more opportunities for 1-Putts and that will help a lot.

Stuart M.
 

I am a "SCRATCH GOLFER".  I hit ball, Ball hits Tree, I scratch my head. 😜

Driver: Ping G410 Plus 10.5* +1* / 3 Hybrid: Cleveland HIBORE XLS / 4,5 & 6 Hybrids: Mizuno JP FLI-HI / Irons/Wedges 7-8-9-P-G: Mizuno JPX800 HD / Sand Wedge: Mizuno JPX 800 / Lob Wedge: Cleveland CBX 60* / Putter: Odyssey White Hot OG 7S / Balls: Srixon Soft / Beer: Labatt Blue (or anything nice & cold) 

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