LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[saevel25]

 

Tiger Woods rips LIV Golf players who 'turned their backs' on sport by choosing cash over major championships - CBSSports.com

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Woods had been more measured when discussing the rival league ... until Tuesday at St. Andrews

 

 

[nevets88]

I think this is the whole statement.

[Sandy Divot]

Just read that Bryson and Bridgestone have parted ways. Don’t know if this was LIV related, or there were other reasons. It said Bryson was going to play Bridgestone during the Open Championship, and possibly in the near future.

[turtleback]

16 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

I know it is not in court... at least not yet.  And I realize the DOJ looked into this in 1994.  They have also looked into profession sports leagues.

My guess, or SWAG, whichever you prefer, is that the PGA Tour might think they are on loose footing by suspending players in good standing, but as time goes on everyone of those players falls down Fedex and OWGR points they no longer have their card.  I believe DeChambeau even alluded to playing on the Asian(?) Tour to maintain points.

Keeping LIV out of OWGR is what is really important.  Without that recognition time is on the side of the PGA Tour.  Everything else is posturing.

John

The players are not in good standing - they violated the PGATour's rules.

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Slippery slope calling them “not a tournament.”

OTOH, there is no reason that OWGR couldn't only recognize 72 hole events for points.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Divot said:

Just read that Bryson and Bridgestone have parted ways. Don’t know if this was LIV related, or there were other reasons. It said Bryson was going to play Bridgestone during the Open Championship, and possibly in the near future.

Bryson DeChambeau and Bridgestone have 'amicably' parted and he's no longer a staff player | Golf Equipment: Clubs, Balls, Bags | GolfDigest.com

15 minutes ago, turtleback said:

OTOH, there is no reason that OWGR couldn't only recognize 72 hole events for points.

They recognize plenty of 54-hole events for points.

[70sSanO]

24 minutes ago, turtleback said:

The players are not in good standing - they violated the PGATour's rules.

By good standing I meant that they have not failed to meet the PGA Tour requirements at the time they were suspended.  Nor were there any morals clause violations, other than trying to put their former employer out of business.

I only see it as a "potential" stumbling block if the suspension is based on what a player is doing outside of the PGA Tour on "technically" their own time.  Obviously if the players fail to play in the minimum number of PGA events, that will result in losing their ability to play; but at the time of the suspensions that had not yet happened.

There might be some precedence, although not exactly the same circumstances, when professional athletes play during the off-season.  Winter ball used to be really popular for some MLB players, I don't know the status anymore.

The unfortunate Brittany Griner situation stemmed from a yearly trip to play in Russia.

Obviously these should not impact the player to perform during the MLB, WNBA season, except for Griner and for anyone who got injured.

I'm not a fan of LIV and could care less if it disappeared tomorrow.  They only interesting player for me to watch, who went to LIV, was Bryson.  It will just be interesting to see how it pans out.  I suspect that the courts will uphold the status quo, but depending on any lawsuits it might be found that the PGA Tour acted correctly, but presumptuously in the timing of its suspensions.

John

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

By good standing I meant that they have not failed to meet the PGA Tour requirements at the time they were suspended.

Yes, they did. They played in an event for which they were not granted a waiver.

16 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

Obviously if the players fail to play in the minimum number of PGA events, that will result in losing their ability to play; but at the time of the suspensions that had not yet happened.

That's not the only requirement.

16 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

There might be some precedence, although not exactly the same circumstances, when professional athletes play during the off-season.

Other sports don't count. Players in the MLB or the NHL or the NFL or the NBA or whatever are under contracts. Your analogy will fall apart before you can get it out of the garage.

[RFKFREAK]

3 hours ago, nevets88 said:

I think this is the whole statement.

👏👏👏👏

[iacas]

Step 1:

They have to be in compliance for a year before they can be granted anything.

Step 2: denied.

[Friz]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

Step 1:

They have to be in compliance for a year before they can be granted anything.

Step 2: denied.

This article is a few weeks old but relevant to the topic, has some pretty interesting points

Will LIV Golf be validated by the World Golf Ranking? It's a thorny question

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The mechanics of golf’s world ranking has never been a pressing concern. But it is highly relevant today, given LIV Golf's emergence.

Highlighting the most relevant statements:

For starters, the applicant must be proposed for consideration by an existing tour that is already in the OWGR fold. The Asian Tour, in which LIV has invested hundreds of millions of dollars, will check that box for LIV

To be eligible for OWGR points, for instance, a tour must operate at least 10 events a year. Failing this year - application shouldn't be relevant until they play more events next year.

Those events must have a minimum purse of $50,000 (LIV clears that bar easily) and an average field size of 75 players. While LIV’s invitational events, including its inaugural tournament outside London earlier this month, are limited to 48 players, its international events will feature 144 competitors, bumping its average field size above 75, the executive said.  What are these international events???

Take, for instance, the OWGR requirement that events be a minimum of 54 holes with a cut after 36 holes. LIV events do not have a cut. But the Tour Championship, the WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play and the Hero World Challenge are also cut-free, and they all dole out OWGR points.  Match play is a horrible comparison, technically there are cuts every round, everyone does not play the entire event.  Tour Championship slightly more relevant, and Hero World Challenge probably the best argument, but these are one-off exceptions and LIV is arguing to circumvent this every single tournament they host.

The OWGR requires that a tour provide a pathway for its players onto the full-member tour that is proposing the application. LIV could meet that requirement, the executive said, by guaranteeing that its top five finishers receive an Asian Tour card (whether those players would opt to play on the Asian Tour is another matter) 

 

The OWGR also requires that a tour hold a qualifying school before the start of the season or offer a qualifying process into each event.  LIV will be able to check that box, the executive said, through a concept it plans to implement within the next few years, after its switch next season to a league format with 48 full-time committed players and 12 committed teams. As part of that concept, the four lowest-ranked players will be relegated and a separate event will be held that will provide a pathway into the league.  This could actually be intriguing, when one of their $100 million prize ponies on a multi-year contract gets relegated (I'm looking at you Phil).

Another hurdle LIV will need to clear is an OWGR requirement that a tour be in operation for at least a year before its events can be eligible for world-ranking points.  And the most relevant immediate point, none of this should matter until next July.  But if the 10 event per year thing has to be met first, maybe even later.

[turtleback]

10 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

By good standing I meant that they have not failed to meet the PGA Tour requirements at the time they were suspended.  Nor were there any morals clause violations, other than trying to put their former employer out of business

John

At the time they were suspended they had failed to comply with the PGA Tour requirements that they get permission to play in competing events.  I don't understand how you spin this to say they "have not failed to meet the PGA Tour requirements at the time they were suspended".    Just because they are independent contractors doesn't mean they can ignore the contract they voluntarily entered into with the PGA Tour.

[70sSanO]

I have no idea how things will play out.  My observation is that in the 21st century having to ask your employer permission to engage in another gig is pretty much out of step with the current culture.

Even more so for independent contractors in the entertainment industry.

Professional sports is entertainment as that is where the revenue comes from.

I never cared for Greg Norman and would love to see this fail and have fall flat on his face.

John

[Shindig]

12 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

I have no idea how things will play out.  My observation is that in the 21st century having to ask your employer permission to engage in another gig is pretty much out of step with the current culture.

Even more so for independent contractors in the entertainment industry.

I am not an independent contractor, but I do have a deal with my employer where I'm allowed outside work X many days a year, with various caveats.  One of those is I can't directly compete with them (so I can't teach at another school, except on an emergency basis, which is defined in a reasonable fashion).  

[imsys0042]

11 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

I have no idea how things will play out.  My observation is that in the 21st century having to ask your employer permission to engage in another gig is pretty much out of step with the current culture.

Even more so for independent contractors in the entertainment industry.

Professional sports is entertainment as that is where the revenue comes from.

I never cared for Greg Norman and would love to see this fail and have fall flat on his face.

John

Lots of jobs have moonlighting clauses and you can be fired if a second job impacts your performance or if you have a specific clause in your employment that forbids it, or requires approval from your current employer.

Like PGA Tour golfers I signed an employment agreement that explicitly states that, mainly because I have on call responsibilities.  If I wanted to work at a charity off-hours where I could still reasonably get to a computer and do my job, they might let me do it.   So there is an exception process.   Pros who want to whine that they were banned when they knew the bylaws they agreed to don't get any sympathy from me.

I do agree with your last statement though.   

[Pretzel]

4 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

Lots of jobs have moonlighting clauses and you can be fired if a second job impacts your performance or if you have a specific clause in your employment that forbids it, or requires approval from your current employer.

Those clauses are all well and dandy for employees, but are generally illegal for independent contractors. You cannot generally control whether or not an independent contractor can do work for other companies or organizations, and certainly not without specific compensation for such a term in exchange other than the job itself. Hence the potential tax implications if courts were to determine the PGA Tour is treating their players as employees.

[Darkfrog]

5 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

My observation is that in the 21st century having to ask your employer permission to engage in another gig is pretty much out of step with the current culture.

At least in my industry/business, most companies have "conflict of interest" requirements that are a requisite of employment. Currently I am a full time employee of a large, global company, and I am not allowed to take a side gig as a part time employee (or 1099 independent contractor) at another company if this is a conflict of interest (e.g., trade secrets involved, working for company B may have adverse impact on company A, etc.). This was true when I was working as an independent contractor/consultant in the same industry as well - usually the language of my contract had some requirements like this built into it. If I do want to take on a side gig, even if it were something completely unrelated to my current job, I need to speak with my management and HR to clear it first, otherwise I am in violation of the requirements for my employment.

[iacas]

Ha ha.

British Open 2022: That cold shoulder LIV players are sensing from the R&A is not just in their heads | Golf News and Tour Information | GolfDigest.com

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LIV Golf players have been shut out of press conferences and given disappointing tee times and pairings at the Open. And some are starting to notice

It continued into the early part of the week, when the press conference schedule did not feature a single LIV player. Not Phil Mickelson, an Open Champion and legend of the game, and not Louis Oosthuizen, a runaway winner at St. Andrews in 2010. Not Dustin Johnson, a two-time major winner who’s had plenty of close calls at the Open. Not Bryson DeChambeau, a U.S. Open champion with a massive following. And not Brooks Koepka, the best major championship player of the last half-decade.

[Zeph]

❤️ to the R&A.

Quote

DeChambeau is with John Daly and Cameron Tringale, this week.

[…]

Perhaps the most egregious: Phil Mickelson, six-time major champion, will play his first two rounds alongside Lucas Herbert and Kurt Kitayama, the latter of whom only got into the field with a runner-up finish at the Genesis Scottish Open last week. At the U.S. Open, Mickelson was paired with Oosthuizen and Shane Lowry.

I agree that this week should be about the 150th Open and not LIV, so leaving them out of the interview zone is a good call.

Now, let’s pray none of the LIV players win the whole thing. 🙏🏻

Edited July 13, 2022 by Zeph