Penalty for Giving Advice After a Round is Complete

[Missouri Swede]

It would have been interesting to be able to hand the book to the opposing coach, and ask him to show the rule that allowed assessment of a penalty after a stipulated round was completed.

My understanding is that a penalty can be assessed after the round (I can recall a PGA example, but there's already another thread for that), if it is for an event that happened during play of the round.

I think the point in this case that the penalty was for an action performed after the player had completed his round (as David in FL, Rulesman, and ColinL pointed out).  That might be what you intended, and I if so think you're right on the money with your comments.  But I think this would be the point to emphasize.

[Avalanche]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkey

Just curious, did your son's teammate slide his putt past the hole, apparently because he didn't hear the comment or didn't heed it?  And even if he played the putt correctly, did the teammate putt first?  Or did anyone from his foursome putt ahead of him in a similar line that would have informed him of the speed of the greens?

================

Seems like an extremely harsh penalty for an offhand comment.  I guess your son can just chalk it up as a lesson learned about rule 8-1.  Also about the lack of sportmanship some coaches (and players) will display in order to get an edge.

You need to read Posts #4 and #11.   It was more than a harsh penalty;  it was an incorrect penalty.

Agreed.

[Shindig]

Agree 100% with this. I would take it up directly with the [URL=http://www.cifstate.org/]California Interscholastic Federation[/URL]. Perhaps the place for @socalsharky to start is to contact the "CIF Rules Interpreter" for golf found on [URL=http://www.cifstate.org/about/rules_interpreters]this page[/URL]. At minimum that contact information should be forwarded to the coach so he can appeal to someone knowledgeable if there is a dispute in the future.

I agree completely. The other coach either doesn't know the rules, which can be forgiven if he had asked if such was illegal and sought someone knowledgeable to discuss this with, or knew the rules and took advantage of the fact that your coach didn't. Either way, please report this incident! Whichever the situation is for the opposing coach, that isn't appropriate. Furthermore, you need to encourage your son's coach to learn the rules of golf, or at least agree to defer to a [i]knowledgeable, neutral third party[/i] (such as a pro at the host course) in event of a dispute in the future. Depending, you might also consider bringing this up with your school's athletic director.

[DaveP043]

I know for a fact that I would never take any high school coach's word for anything much about the game of golf unless I knew his credentials.  One of the coaches I knew when I worked as a starter didn't even play golf.  He took the job to make a little extra money because none of the other teachers wanted it.  All he really did was handle the team's logistics - the kids were mostly on their own as far as playing was concerned.  Pretty sad situation for the golf team at that school.

Its not even a matter of credentials, anyone can make a mistake.  I've had a head pro give the wrong ruling (via cell phone), and I was able to arrive at the correct ruling within a few minutes.  Once our match got back to the clubhouse, the pro agreed with what I had found in the Rules.  Another time I sent a question to the USGA concerning a handicap question, and received an incorrect answer, one which they very promptly corrected.  Like I said, we all make mistakes.

My usual procedure when I get a ruling of any kind, especially if I think it doesn't sound right, is to ask to be shown the specific rule or decision, so that I can refer back to it if the circumstance ever happens again.  Its so much easier to ask to be educated than it is to imply that someone is wrong.

[DaveP043]

My understanding is that a penalty can be assessed after the round (I can recall a PGA example, but there's already another thread for that), if it is for an event that happened during play of the round.

I think the point in this case that the penalty was for an action performed after the player had completed his round (as David in FL, Rulesman, and ColinL pointed out).  That might be what you intended, and I if so think you're right on the money with your comments.  But I think this would be the point to emphasize.

Craig, you're right, that's the meaning I intended, I could have written that more clearly.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I know for a fact that I would never take any high school coach's word for anything much about the game of golf unless I knew his credentials.  One of the coaches I knew when I worked as a starter didn't even play golf.  He took the job to make a little extra money because none of the other teachers wanted it.  All he really did was handle the team's logistics - the kids were mostly on their own as far as playing was concerned.  Pretty sad situation for the golf team at that school.

Its not even a matter of credentials, anyone can make a mistake.  I've had a head pro give the wrong ruling (via cell phone), and I was able to arrive at the correct ruling within a few minutes.  Once our match got back to the clubhouse, the pro agreed with what I had found in the Rules.  Another time I sent a question to the USGA concerning a handicap question, and received an incorrect answer, one which they very promptly corrected.  Like I said, we all make mistakes.

My usual procedure when I get a ruling of any kind, especially if I think it doesn't sound right, is to ask to be shown the specific rule or decision, so that I can refer back to it if the circumstance ever happens again.  Its so much easier to ask to be educated than it is to imply that someone is wrong.

I never said that people don't make mistakes.  All I was doing was reinforcing the idea that high school golf coaches are one of the worst resources for rules knowledge.  As far as credentials, if a person has demonstrated decent rules knowledge to me in the past, then I'm more likely to take him at his word than I am if I don't know his background, because I know how clueless many coaches are.

As far as course professionals, my experience only has them right about 75% of the time, and that includes some fairly basic rules situations.

Taking relief from an irregularly shaped area of ground under repair is one that seems to be a real stumper.

Relief from an unplayable lie when the dropped ball rolls back into the same position it was in before lifting.  It's amazing how many players and pros think that they get a redrop for that.

Regression is another one that stumps course pros a lot.  How is the procedure different if I've elected to try one stroke to try and get out of the woods before declaring the ball unplayable, vs. the same situation in a water hazard?

These are common situations that most players and a surprising number of course pros will stumble over.

[socalsharky]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.  For those of you commenting on the level of golf knowledge and ability among HS golf coaches, you are correct.  My son's coach, while a great guy and good teacher, couldn't break 90 if Rory was hitting his first two shots on every hole.  It does bother me that he doesn't fight for his players.

There are no rules officials for high school matches until you get to the regional or state playoffs.  Certainly, the two coaches should have involved a third party like the head pro at the course.

To me, the most basic question here is whether a penalty can be assessed against a player who has completed his round.  If not, then does that allow players who have finished to provide any advice they please to those who are still playing, with no penalties involved?  I know the rules probably do not allow for this, but the only possible penalty (if there was one at all) would be to have retroactively assessed my son a 2 stroke penalty.  But no way is this a DQ.

Does anyone know if there is a way to submit a ruling request to the USGA?

[turtleback]

OK, so in this situation where it was a casual comment I think we are agreed there is no penalty but I'm a little confused about one aspect.  What if the kid yelled out to his teammate "Hey, watch out, that putt is faster than it looks."

The teammate never solicited advice so he should not be penalized.  The kid who yelled it out is done with his stipulated round so, according to some of them comments in the thread, HE cannot be assessed the penalty.

So who gets assessed a penalty under what provision of the rules?

[socalsharky]

OK, so in this situation where it was a casual comment I think we are agreed there is no penalty but I'm a little confused about one aspect.  What if the kid yelled out to his teammate "Hey, watch out, that putt is faster than it looks."

The teammate never solicited advice so he should not be penalized.  The kid who yelled it out is done with his stipulated round so, according to some of them comments in the thread, HE cannot be assessed the penalty.

So who gets assessed a penalty under what provision of the rules?

Exactly.

[ColinL]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.  For those of you commenting on the level of golf knowledge and ability among HS golf coaches, you are correct.  My son's coach, while a great guy and good teacher, couldn't break 90 if Rory was hitting his first two shots on every hole.  It does bother me that he doesn't fight for his players.

There are no rules officials for high school matches until you get to the regional or state playoffs.  Certainly, the two coaches should have involved a third party like the head pro at the course.

To me, the most basic question here is whether a penalty can be assessed against a player who has completed his round.  If not, then does that allow players who have finished to provide any advice they please to those who are still playing, with no penalties involved?  I know the rules probably do not allow for this, but the only possible penalty (if there was one at all) would be to have retroactively assessed my son a 2 stroke penalty.  But no way is this a DQ.

Does anyone know if there is a way to submit a ruling request to the USGA?

Be assured that you have been given the correct ruling by Rulesman, David in FL and myself.  Your lad cannot be in breach of Rule 8-1 for something said after his stipulated round was completed.  The wording, as quoted above,   explicitly states that during a stipulated  round , a player must not give advice to anyone playing on the course. Your son was not liable to any penalty at all.

But don't think that all the guys who have finished their round can rush around the course giving advice to the rest of the team.  A player who is being given advice in this way  is  obliged to take steps to stop it happening or be penalised. (That would not apply to a one-off casual remark such as we have been discussing).   See Decision 8-1/24

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-08/#d8-1-24

Edit: I think by chance I've just answered the questions that were being asked while I was writing.

[fr0sty]

OK, so in this situation where it was a casual comment I think we are agreed there is no penalty but I'm a little confused about one aspect.  What if the kid yelled out to his teammate "Hey, watch out, that putt is faster than it looks."

The teammate never solicited advice so he should not be penalized.  The kid who yelled it out is done with his stipulated round so, according to some of them comments in the thread, HE cannot be assessed the penalty.

So who gets assessed a penalty under what provision of the rules?

This is not a direct fit, but close:

8-1/24

Advice Given by Team Coach or Captain

Q. A team competition is being played, and in the conditions the Committee has not authorized captains or coaches to give advice under the Note to Rule 8. A non-playing coach or captain gives advice during a round to one of the members of his team. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. However, the player should take action to stop this irregular procedure. If he does not do so, he should, in equity (Rule 1-4 ), incur a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play in view of the purpose of Rule 8-1 .

[Dormie1360]

I'm late to this, but I think Colin's last post correctly covers this situation and cases like it.

I was thinking that while the coaches were arguing someone must have opened up a rule book and found the section on Advice.  I guess they got stumped on the definition of "stipulated round" and/or whether the stipulated round applied to both players or not.

Any word italicized in the rule is found in the definitions.  Anyone trying to decipher a rule, should check the definition for that word.  It can really help with the understanding.

[DrvFrShow]

8-1/24

Advice Given by Team Coach or Captain

Q. A team competition is being played, and in the conditions the Committee has not authorized captains or coaches to give advice under the Note to Rule 8. A non-playing coach or captain gives advice during a round to one of the members of his team. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty . However, the player should take action to stop this irregular procedure . If he does not do so , he should , in equity (Rule 1-4 ), incur a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play in view of the purpose of Rule 8-1 .

I like the answer. There is no penalty but there is a penalty if the player doesn't make an effort to stop it. Seems contradictory. It seems like you need to be a lawyer to understand this one.

Hands over ears "La la la la la la" okay got it coach.

[Asheville]

The kid "giving advice", having completed his round, is nothing more than a spectator. He, as many others have said, has all of the status of the town dogcatcher.

[Club Rat]

Does anyone know if there is a way to submit a ruling request to the USGA?

Yes you may contact USGA.

They are usually quick with replies via email.

I've never tried to contact them on the phone, but have sent questions by email and always received a reply.

Individuals with questions specific to the Rules of Golf or the Rules of Amateur Status, please contact us as follows:

Phone: 908-326-1850
Fax: 908-234-9687
For all other inquiries, please use the USGA's main number: 908-234-2300.

Mailing Address
The United States Golf Association
P.O. Box 708
Far Hills, N.J. 07931

[Shindig]

Does anyone know if there is a way to submit a ruling request to the USGA?

Contact them. Or the SCGA. USGA: http://www.usga.org/rules/contact/Contact-Us/ SCGA: http://scga.org/contact -- rules, youth on course

[dkolo]

Yes you may contact USGA.

They are usually quick with replies via email.

I've never tried to contact them on the phone, but have sent questions by email and always received a reply.

Individuals with questions specific to the Rules of Golf or the Rules of Amateur Status, please contact us as follows:

Phone: 908-326-1850

Fax: 908-234-9687

For all other inquiries, please use the USGA's main number: 908-234-2300.

Mailing Address

The United States Golf Association

P.O. Box 708

Far Hills, N.J. 07931

I love it; it's like the golf version of the Butterball hotline.

[boogielicious]

The coach who complained and called the penalty needs to be contacted by the league to inform him that he was incorrect as well.  He needs to learn the Rules of Golf.