Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[Braivo]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because it makes putting easier, despite what the USGA/R&A say.

I'm not convinced that it makes putting significantly easier. My trouble has never been the ball moving over the hole, but rather hitting the hole in the first place. Flag isn't going to help that. Even "bombing" it through the break runs the risk of missing and having a long downhill putt to recover, not going to risk that just because I "may" get help from the flagstick. 

8 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Some good studies could be done on all this, and we can all make better sense of it after that.

I would like to see data that proves this does, or does not, make putting easier. Until then I am not convinced that it does. Changes strategy, perhaps, but overall makes it easier? I don't know. 

[RandallT]

1 minute ago, Braivo said:

I would like to see data that proves this does, or does not, make putting easier. Until then I am not convinced that it does. Changes strategy, perhaps, but overall makes it easier? I don't know. 

Fair enough. I think the USGA/R&A should do those studies and be very transparent.

As I see it, they are changing something for problem A (speed of play on greens). But they are creating impact B (changing how people will putt). Yet they are not acknowledging B. Or if they are acknowledging B, they shrug it off with "maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't." That's not a very comprehensive approach to this.

Let's get a good solid study, and see what B is.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Ditto.  Could care less one way or the other.

How much less?

17 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

For some it will speed up play (twosomes probably the most), others it will slow down play (foursomes where they take the flag in and out depending on who wants it in and who doesn't) and it will allow a few more putts made.

I don't even really care about that. I also don't think leaving the flagstick in will improve pace of play very much at all. Done right taking the flagstick out once and replacing it once adds almost no time to a round of golf.

17 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

How many more putts would be holed that would've been missed, remains to be seen.  A bad putter will still miss the hole more often then a good putter, so I still think the advantage will play out over time for the better putter.  

The advantage will actually increase slightly.

Again, it's like the rules makers are making the hole bigger. That's what the effect of this change will be. It will be significantly easier to make putts from 3-6', two-putting from long range will be easier, etc.

It's like the hole is (proposed) to be 5.25".

(To a point, increasing the hole size benefits better putters. Past a certain point, and the gap between good and bad putters begins to narrow again.)

15 minutes ago, RandallT said:

I don't have a number necessarily of how many strokes I'd be willing to accept or how little change in technique I'd putt up with, but I'd prefer that there be a minimal difference.

I wouldn't describe the difference as "minimal."

Try it yourself. Go bang putts at the flagstick, and be honest about how far past they'd have gone if you didn't have the flagstick in the hole.

I'm not willing to accept any change. 4.25" is the hole size. This effectively makes the hole 5.25" big. That'll have a dramatic effect on scoring.

15 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Why a minimal difference? Because the WHOLE POINT of this change was to fix pace of play, and these are SIDE EFFECTS of that effort. The USGA is not setting out to make putting easier or to change the way we putt, but that is a likely impact, and in my mind, those are NOT WORTH it. As I read somewhere on the flagstickrule.com, "the juice isn't worth the squeeze."

I'm a huge fan of fast play, but not at the expense of fundamentally changing putting from close range.

I still don't think this will even improve pace of play all that often. Players playing alone or in small groups putt with the flagstick in now.

The USGA/R&A are over-stating the pace of play advantage while completely ignoring the "ease of making putts" advantage.

7 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

That's a logical fallacy, an appeal to authority, Pascal.

Show me a study that refutes the Pelz study.  That is how science work.  Pelz is the working theory as far as I'm aware.  Unless you are aware of a better study, are you?  If not then what are you basing your conclusions on?

I don't think he (@Asheville) disagrees with the Pelz study, but I could be wrong about that.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I'm not convinced that it makes putting significantly easier.

It's fine to still have some doubts, but if you're not heavily leaning that way, you've really got no basis for that.

There's never been a study which supports the claim that it has no effect or makes putting more difficult, while Pelz, myself, and others in smaller sample sizes and less "official" studies have concluded that it does make putting easier.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

My trouble has never been the ball moving over the hole, but rather hitting the hole in the first place. Flag isn't going to help that. Even "bombing" it through the break runs the risk of missing and having a long downhill putt to recover, not going to risk that just because I "may" get help from the flagstick.

At some range you're going to be aided by the flagstick.

And better players who can rely on not being as bad a putter as you seem to believe yourself to be will take advantage of it. So the gap between poor putters and good putters will grow.

5 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I would like to see data that proves this does, or does not, make putting easier. Until then I am not convinced that it does. Changes strategy, perhaps, but overall makes it easier? I don't know. 

Yep.

Right now, you can just look at the Pelz study.

In the near future, there will be more data.

The USGA/R&A should have studied this before stating that it doesn't offer an advantage. It does.

Just now, RandallT said:

As I see it, they are changing something for problem A (speed of play on greens). But they are creating impact B (changing how people will putt). Yet they are not acknowledging B. Or if they are acknowledging B, they shrug it off with "maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't." That's not a very comprehensive approach to this.

Let's get a good solid study, and see what B is.

Yeah, but let's not forget that the one study done by a guy with a science degree and a NASA background shows, definitively, that the flagstick in helps you make more putts.

I'm all for more data, but the data we have now is 100% in the "makes putting easier" category.

[dsc123]

Pelz explained his study in either his putting or short game book.  And in an article on golf.com.  

[Fourputt]

Another observation - we have all seen that heartbreaking putt that does a full 180 or more and ends up a few inches from the hole.  With the flagstick in the hole, that result would be almost impossible.  As the ball circles the back of the hole, it can't help but hit the stick and fall in.  I can't really envision any scenario where that wouldn't be true.  Maybe some would be in favor of that, but I would not.  

[jsgolfer]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

How much less?

So much so that if they keep it the way it is, I'll still play golf and if they change it, I'll still play golf and take the advantage they give me.  

I just have no strong reaction one way or the other unfortunately.  Golf will still be a great game and I will continue to enjoy playing as much as I can.  

 

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't even really care about that. I also don't think leaving the flagstick in will improve pace of play very much at all. Done right taking the flagstick out once and replacing it once adds almost no time to a round of golf.

I guess I will disagree slightly with not speeding up play.  I'm not saying it will cut a round by hours but even 10-15 minutes for 18 holes would be great.  If everyone agrees to not taking the flag out ever, it has to speed up play, at least some.  

This happened the other day, me and one of my golfing buddies (both of us walk, he carries & I have a push cart), he hit his second shot onto our 7th green (barely ~70 feet away).  I hit after him and hit my shot onto the green but it just rolled off the back.  By the time I got to my ball, he had already putted out, I chipped on to tap-in distance (almost made it), he picked up my ball and walked to next hole.  If we played strictly by the rules, he would've waited for me to come on the green so I could tend the flag.  Has to help speed up play, even if it's only a little every hole.  

I could be wrong, but then again I've played many, many times and been the last person to putt and I'm the one that has to grab the flag and put it in. So that is definitely a time waster.

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

The advantage will actually increase slightly.

Again, it's like the rules makers are making the hole bigger. That's what the effect of this change will be. It will be significantly easier to make putts from 3-6', two-putting from long range will be easier, etc.

It's like the hole is (proposed) to be 5.25".

(To a point, increasing the hole size benefits better putters. Past a certain point, and the gap between good and bad putters begins to narrow again.)

 

I definitely believe that a better putter will gain an advantage on a poor putter over the course of a round.  

Next time I play solo, I'm going to play leaving the pin in the entire round and see how it goes.

I just don't see that scores will go down dramatically, I can see maybe a stroke can't see two strokes, I personally don't miss that many short putts that hit the center of the hole, my misses tend to just lip out.  But alternatively there will be times when I try and jam it into the flagstick and miss and have 6-8 feet coming back and miss that one.  So I could see someone three-putting when they normally would've two-putted.  

 

[No Mulligans]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Another observation - we have all seen that heartbreaking putt that does a full 180 or more and ends up a few inches from the hole.  With the flagstick in the hole, that result would be almost impossible.  As the ball circles the back of the hole, it can't help but hit the stick and fall in.  I can't really envision any scenario where that wouldn't be true.  Maybe some would be in favor of that, but I would not.  

I think it could still do the 360 and come out.  There is more than the diameter of the ball space between the cup edge and the flagstick.  After all, the ball fits in and down into the cup with the flag in.  

[boogielicious]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Another observation - we have all seen that heartbreaking putt that does a full 180 or more and ends up a few inches from the hole.  With the flagstick in the hole, that result would be almost impossible.  As the ball circles the back of the hole, it can't help but hit the stick and fall in.  I can't really envision any scenario where that wouldn't be true.  Maybe some would be in favor of that, but I would not.  

Agreed.

[Fourputt]

Just now, No Mulligans said:

I think it could still do the 360 and come out.  There is more than the diameter of the ball space between the cup edge and the flagstick.  After all, the ball fits in and down into the cup with the flag in.  

That clearance is minimal.  The ball would have to track perfectly in order to not hit the stick.

[sjduffers]

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

Right. If the rule is the same for everyone, why does it matter that much?

Just remove putting altogether from golf then. Problem solved: everybody is as good as anyone else at it, and it would take much less time to play a hole, maybe half the time as it does now.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You can't imagine the USGA/R&A proposing a 5.25" hole these days, could you, for all of golf everywhere? Old records and stats would be a joke. Course ratings would change. The 50% make range might extend to 11 or 12' on the PGA Tour… it'd drastically affect golf.

Excellent point. Hopefully they will see it this way after they've received all the responses and rescind the proposal 

[Asheville]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

That's a logical fallacy, an appeal to authority, Pascal.

Show me a study that refutes the Pelz study.  That is how science work.  Pelz is the working theory as far as I'm aware.  Unless you are aware of a better study, are you?  If not then what are you basing your conclusions on?

I accepted Pelz's conclusion on the flagstick years ago. I'm an evidence based decision maker, in the main. 

The existing Rule is one of a few nuisance Rules. This and some others such as spike marks and unequal treatment of loose impediments have been addressed by the moderization scheme.

I'll be happy with whatever is made into law.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Pelz explained his study in either his putting or short game book. And in an article on golf.com.  

The study is linked to here:

https://flagstickrule.com/background-info/

It is here: http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out . I think he originally published it in the magazine itself. That's where I remember reading it first, if my memory is correct.

58 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

So much so that if they keep it the way it is, I'll still play golf and if they change it, I'll still play golf and take the advantage they give me.  

You may have missed my point… I think you intended to say you couldn't care less.

 

58 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

I guess I will disagree slightly with not speeding up play.  I'm not saying it will cut a round by hours but even 10-15 minutes for 18 holes would be great.

You think it takes you 10-15 minutes to "manage" the flagstick? Note that time spent "managing" the flagstick when other people are doing other things doesn't count.

I think this might improve the pace of play, oh, about a minute or two. Likely less.  And that's in an ideal scenario where everyone just leaves the flagstick in.

58 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

I could be wrong, but then again I've played many, many times and been the last person to putt and I'm the one that has to grab the flag and put it in. So that is definitely a time waster.

That's just players not doing what they're supposed to do. Slow players are still going to be slow.

58 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

I just don't see that scores will go down dramatically, I can see maybe a stroke can't see two strokes, I personally don't miss that many short putts that hit the center of the hole, my misses tend to just lip out.

Two points:

• It's not just about putts that hit the "center of the hole." Between the ball being 1.68" and the flagstick being 0.35" to 0.5", there's a lot of room for the flagstick to help you. Putts that would lip out can be deadened by the flagstick and drop.
• You can't equate how you putt without a flagstick and assume that you'd apply the same tactics: your strategy would change.

Like @Fourputt said above… you can just bang those four-footers in on the practice green because the sticks help the ball just drop into the cup.

[rehmwa]

However the rule turns out, I'll usually pull the flagstick for one reason and one reason only - I REALLY like the sound of the ball falling into the empty cup.

(When I play solo, much of the time I don't bother pulling the stick - other than for the sound...., yet I can't help but putt as if it's not there, and it's load faster (not really, but I'm really lazy)

- even so, if I'm not solo, and the other someone is a stickler for it, I'll pull it the entire round if that keeps them from mumbling about it.  There's something nice about the formality of helping each other with the ritual of it)

The more serious I am about a round, the more likely I'll pull the stick and do it 'seriously' and by the rules - that probably says more about not agreeing with this rule (If I were someone that played in tournaments or bets - which I'm not)

 

edit:  I wonder if I can find of the ringtone of that sound......

 

[Dick Kusleika]

I think I'll invent a hole liner that projects a hologram of a flag. Problem solved. Except wind direction at the hole.

[Aflighter]

Im  not a believer in the flagstick helping you make putts unless you hit it directly center. I dont ever want the flagstick in putting or chipping because I feel  the hole is bigger without a rod stuck in it. Ever notice how Mickelson likes chipping with flagstick out? I dont think hes doing it to make it harder. There is one problem that could arise if lots of people leave stick in and that is its lil harder getting ball out of hole without possibly scraping the lips of the hole cause the ball is pinned between stick and bottom of cup.

[No Mulligans]

 

Im  not a believer in the flagstick helping you make putts unless you hit it directly center. I dont ever want the flagstick in putting or chipping because I feel  the hole is bigger without a rod stuck in it. Ever notice how Mickelson likes chipping with flagstick out? 

The heck with the science, I'm a man of faith.

 

There is one problem that could arise if lots of people leave stick in and that is its lil harder getting ball out of hole without possibly scraping the lips of the hole cause the ball is pinned between stick and bottom of cup.

Yes, much more likely to get hole damage with this new rule.

[Pretzel]

 

An important part of my job was technical writing.

Then you should understand the need for background information and an explanation of the author's stance. In those cases, less can definitely be less if there isn't enough.