Spike Marks

[DrvFrShow]

This comes out of the Lexi thread because it's hypothesized that she moved her ball to avoid one. We can repair damage to the green that's in our putting line like a ball mark, but we can't tap down a spike mark. I'd like to know why and how they made that decision. Now, I know they can't have us repairing every single imperfection to the green and creating a groove for our ball to travel to the hole. That's not the point. But spike marks where that tuft of grass gets lifted that can deflect the ball can't be tapped down. 

Note that one course in my area has banned spikes altogether including soft spikes and requires spikeless shoes. The purpose is to help control poa infestation of the greens, but it does eliminate spike marks.

[406pat]

I'm not sure of the exact history but it probably grows out of the principle of playing the course as you find it. I'd imagine that as the game developed with harder balls and more controlled spin along with better manicured greens repairing ball marks became a necessary exception to maintain the playability of the course. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more a situation where the decision was made for the sake of the course rather than the sake of the player. Spike marks can be a pain but, unless someone is really shuffling and twisting, they don't seem to damage the green the way a ball mark will. It seems like spike marks and footprints weren't really considered "damage" but more like a natural variation in conditions over the course of play, like divots. That's just my best guess and if someone knows the actual history I'd love to hear it!

For what it's worth, loosening the standards on what can and can't be repaired on the green is part of the new modernized rule changes. Spike marks are specifically included by the USGA as an example of damage that may be repaired in the future.

Also, with a depression as small as the one that it looked like Lexi may have moved out of, it might not have been made by a ball. It could have been made by a putter or the flag stick or something else. Only damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired under the current rules so If she would have repaired it, she may have been penalized for that action too.

[colin007]

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

Note that one course in my area has banned spikes altogether including soft spikes and requires spikeless shoes. The purpose is to help control poa infestation of the greens, but it does eliminate spike marks.

"Spikeless"?? Do you mean, truly no spikes at all even those little nubs on golf shoes that don't have removable spikes?

I wouldn't play there, I need spikes.

[WestKyGolfer]

I still miss my metal spikes. But the can tear up a green if you are not careful.

[dennyjones]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

"Spikeless"?? Do you mean, truly no spikes at all even those little nubs on golf shoes that don't have removable spikes?

I wouldn't play there, I need spikes.

I usually have one of the first tee times of the morning and the grass is still wet from dew.   I need something more than tennis shoes (sneakers for anybody not from Michigan)  

[phillyk]

4 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Note that one course in my area has banned spikes altogether including soft spikes and requires spikeless shoes. The purpose is to help control poa infestation of the greens, but it does eliminate spike marks.

Which course is that?  I get the whole infestation thing, we have that up north at my course.  But how does banning spikes of any kind help control it? I haven't heard of that.

[No Mulligans]

They eliminated metal spikes to protect the greens?

I wonder which of these do more damage.

[WestKyGolfer]

4 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

This comes out of the Lexi thread because it's hypothesized that she moved her ball to avoid one. We can repair damage to the green that's in our putting line like a ball mark, but we can't tap down a spike mark. I'd like to know why and how they made that decision. Now, I know they can't have us repairing every single imperfection to the green and creating a groove for our ball to travel to the hole. That's not the point. But spike marks where that tuft of grass gets lifted that can deflect the ball can't be tapped down. 

Note that one course in my area has banned spikes altogether including soft spikes and requires spikeless shoes. The purpose is to help control poa infestation of the greens, but it does eliminate spike marks.

Here is what I could find in a quick search,

Rule 16-1

USGA Position on Spikemarks

Q. What is the USGA position on spikemarks?

A. The Rules of Golf are based on two fundamental principles: (1) play the ball as it lies and (2) play the course as you find it. Permitting the repair of spike marks on a player`s line of play or putt would be contrary to these fundamental principles. Rule 16-1c permits the repair of old hole plugs and ball marks but does not permit the repair of spike damage or other irregularities of surface on the putting green if they are on a player`s line of play or putt or might assist him in his subsequent play of the hole. The distinction lies in the fact that old hole plugs and ball marks are easily identifiable as such, whereas it is impossible to differentiate between spike damage and other irregularities of surface on the putting green. Permitting the repair of spike marks would also inevitably lead to a slower place of play. Please note that proper etiquette recommends that damage to the putting green caused by golf shoe spikes be repaired on completion of the hole by all players, just as a player should fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by him before leaving a bunker. We feel that improved education and players` consideration for others rather than a change in the Rules of Golf is the proper solution to the problem.

 

and

 

RULES OF GOLF

AS APPROVED BY
THE ROYAL AND ANCIENT GOLF CLUB
OF ST. ANDREWS,

26 September 1899.

18.  Any loose impediments may be removed from the putting-green, irrespective of the position of the player’s ball. The opponent’s ball may not be moved except as provided for by the immediately preceding Rule. If the player’s ball move after any loose impediment lying within six inches of it has been touched by the player, his partner, or either of their caddies, the penalty shall be one stroke.

19.  When the ball is on the putting-green the player or his caddie may remove (but not press down) sand, earth, dung, worm casts, mole-hills, snow, or ice lying round the hole or in the line of his putt. This shall be done by brushing lightly with the hand only across the putt and not along it. Dung may be removed by a club, but the club must not be laid with more than its own weight upon the ground. The line of the putt must not be touched, except with the club immediately in front of the ball, in the act of addressing it, or as above authorised. The penalty for a breach of this Rule is the loss of the hole.

 

Not specifically addressing spike marks, but probably the origin of the rule.

 

[David in FL]

5 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

They eliminated metal spikes to protect the greens?

I wonder which of these do more damage.

The steel spikes.  By a significant margin...

[Buckeyebowman]

FWIW, I think players at all levels of competition should be allowed to tamp down spike marks. Of course the alarmists will all come out screeching about creating a "channel" to the hole! Come on now, get real!

And if you're truly supposed to play the course "as you find it" I guess you'd have to putt through unrepaired ball marks! Admittedly, these are few and far between on the pro tours, but far too common on the courses I play! And I've found sloppily "repaired" ball marks that I had to attend to as well!

Let's face it, you see a spike mark in the vicinity of your line, you go tamp it down, takes only a few seconds. What's the problem?

[David in FL]

10 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

FWIW, I think players at all levels of competition should be allowed to tamp down spike marks. Of course the alarmists will all come out screeching about creating a "channel" to the hole! Come on now, get real!

And if you're truly supposed to play the course "as you find it" I guess you'd have to putt through unrepaired ball marks! Admittedly, these are few and far between on the pro tours, but far too common on the courses I play! And I've found sloppily "repaired" ball marks that I had to attend to as well!

Let's face it, you see a spike mark in the vicinity of your line, you go tamp it down, takes only a few seconds. What's the problem?

The proposed "modernization" changes will change this.

[iacas]

Some of you, have you been living under a rock since March 1…?

I'll give Julia a pass, but @Buckeyebowman? C'mon man…

http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-proposed-changes/proposed-change--repairing-damage-on-the-putting-green.html

[chilepepper]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

The steel spikes.  By a significant margin...

Disagree with that. I saw less scuffed up greens back in the 70's and up than I do with the claw spikes now

[Rulesman]

11 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

 The purpose is to help control poa infestation of the greens,.

How does that work? Poa annua grow as a result of seed germination. How do spikes make any difference? It is not a fungus or disease.

The annual form of Poa annua produces stemmy seed heads that often grow in a circular pattern around the leaves, especially when the turf is mowed regularly. The perennial types of Poa annua essentially survive only in very close-cut turfs like golf course greens.

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Rulesman

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, chilepepper said:

Disagree with that. I saw less scuffed up greens back in the 70's and up than I do with the claw spikes now

Not me.  Apparently not any golf courses either.  

 

[saevel25]

8 hours ago, chilepepper said:

Disagree with that. I saw less scuffed up greens back in the 70's and up than I do with the claw spikes now

The push to non-metal spike marks has pretty much negated spike marks. I honestly rarely see them. 

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

This comes out of the Lexi thread because it's hypothesized that she moved her ball to avoid one. We can repair damage to the green that's in our putting line like a ball mark, but we can't tap down a spike mark. I'd like to know why and how they made that decision. Now, I know they can't have us repairing every single imperfection to the green and creating a groove for our ball to travel to the hole. That's not the point. But spike marks where that tuft of grass gets lifted that can deflect the ball can't be tapped down. 

For most of the history of golf, you weren't allowed to repair anything on the putting green. As others have said, the traditional principle is to play the course as you find it, "warts" and all.   The first mention I can find of repairing ball marks was from the 1960 R&A Rules.  I'd guess that this corresponds to a growing availability of in-ground watering systems and improved maintenance equipment.  On softer and smoother greens, the pitch marks would have been deeper and more impactful on the game.  Pitch marks are pretty easy to identify most times, and can be VERY severe, but spike marks aren't as easy to distinguish from other blemishes, and aren't nearly so severe, so I can understand that distinction being made.  The rulemakers didn't decide to specifically exclude spike marks, they decided to allow repair of only a very limited class of imperfections.  Times continue to change, along with attitudes.  Green maintenance is better than ever, so small blemishes stand out more.  Attitudes change, we're less likely to accept the rub of the green, we expect a nice smooth path to the hole.  

[Patch]

37 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The push to non-metal spike marks has pretty much negated spike marks. I honestly rarely see them. 

I hardly ever see actual soft spike  golf shoes being worn anymore.

I tend to golf with  seniors, and most of the shoes I see being worn are tennis shoes. These tennis shoes might have decent tread on them, but they are still just tennis shoes. 

Most spike damage I see are drag marks which tells me the wearer is not picking their feet up when walking.

I don't wear spiked shoes of any kind, since I prefer wearing a comfortable walking shoe. I do own a pair of soft spikes, but I only wear them in wet, slippery weather. That or if the course requires spikes of some king, which is pretty rare.