Feel Ain't Real

[mvmac]

It's a saying that is regularly used on the site. For newbies it means that what a player may be feeling in their swing mechanically can be very different than what is really happening. This is very common in golf, especially when golfers are making tweaks and changes to their swings. 

Feel free to share any examples you've experienced or run across.

Going to start this thread by sharing a funny example from John Daly. 

This is him feeling like he's making a "chip" swing.

Maybe one of the more famous ones, Ben Hogan demonstrating what he felt on his downswing, more rotary with the pelvis in right pelvic tilt and the left shoulder high.

But in reality, in transition he moved into his left side with the left hip lower which levels out when the lead arm is parallel to the ground.

Left shoulder still lower than the right.

[Lihu]

Quote

John Daly showing us how to hit a little punch shot. “Almost like a little chip and the swing gets a little shorter”... as he wraps it around his neck in the back swing! Hahah

Was laughing so hard at this I couldn't even comprehend the Hogan "feel". We really have no idea what we're doing with our bodies. That's why i use a mirror every morning, and every morning I try a swing without looking at myself to where I think I should be, look up and am off by quite a bit.

When scuba diving, without that little floating bob, a diver could be completely upside down and not know it. even the bubbles could be floating down depending upon the currents. . .

[Piz]

There are elements, in athletic movements, that happen faster than we are capable of perceiving in real time.  Thus we stitch together a narrative, often mistaken or incomplete, in much the same manner as a rapid series of still photographs becomes a motion picture.  I used to encounter this phenomenon while coaching pitchers; even at the highest level players describe their movements in ways that slow-motion video shows to be inaccurate.  On the plus side, however, a subjective sense of proprioception is not a barrier to success...more like a requisite.  Right or wrong, it appears better to have a clear concept than a blurry one.  

[nevets88]

Video... doesn't... lie...

For the most part anyway, disclaimer on camera angles, 2D, and stuff like that. I'd take a camera over random Joe Golfer on the range any day.

Garcia says pull the hands down, but in his swing, they go down at first but there's a big towards the ball component as well.

 

[JonMA1]

So true and good to know.

I do believe that with an instructor who knows what he or she is doing, combined with a student who understands it isn't really what's happening, feel can be a valuable learning tool.

Edited November 17, 2017 by JonMA1

[Henrik Engvall]

I believe that you have to connect everything in your swing to a feeling. You can`t think of your swing when playing under pressure. If you are gonna shoot a good score its your feelings that are important and everyone feels different things.    

If you feel confident you will hit a good shot, you do. But that feeling and the reality may not be the same. Your swing may look in a different way than it feels. It`s when the feeling goes away or changes, thats when you lose your game. 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Henrik Engvall

[saevel25]

10 minutes ago, Henrik Engvall said:

believe that you have to connect everything in your swing to a feeling. You can`t think of your swing when playing under pressure. If you are gonna shoot a good score its your feelings that are important and everyone feels different things.    

You can think of a feeling.

I played by best round by doing the following,

1. Thinking and visualizing the shot I want to hit
2. Thinking of the feeling I need to have to hit that shot.  

I knew from warming up on the range that the feeling of pushing the ball right hit a slight push draw. I went with that. Another day that same feeling could produce a straight draw or maybe a shot that draws too much. I can either keep the same feeling and open the clubface more or I could try to feel like I am not swinging out as much.

Everyone feels different things, but sometimes the same feeling might produce two different shot types for that golfer. Being able to think and adjust the feeling or the target line is important.

16 minutes ago, Henrik Engvall said:

If you feel confident you will hit a good shot, you do. But that feeling and the reality may not be the same.

Not really. Bad shots are going to happen. Even PGA Tour players shank a ball from time to time. Staying confident is important, but knowing expectations is important as well to maintain confidence.

[phillyk]

16 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I do believe that with an instructor who knows what he or she is doing, combined with a student who understands it isn't really what's happening, feel can be a valuable learning tool.

That was the key when I took lessons long ago and had to stop with that particular guy. In the lesson, he had me change this or that which I was able to do really well off the bat, but I did 3 swings and done. I couldn’t develop the feel of that change on 3 balls, so it never really stuck even with practice. 

When using a swing aid, some help with eyeing a certain path while other aids help develop feel. Every student has their preferred method, whether its eye balling it or feeling it, etc.

[klineka]

One of the ones that helped me the most with my Evolvr lessons was around my head movement. 

My head moved forward a lot throughout the swing, so by my thinking to move my head backward away from the target, it actually kept my head still. 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 11/17/2017 at 4:06 PM, klineka said:

One of the ones that helped me the most with my Evolvr lessons was around my head movement. 

My head moved forward a lot throughout the swing, so by my thinking to move my head backward away from the target, it actually kept my head still. 

Hmmmm, good tip! I went out to the range this past Summer to hit a few balls. It started out as an absolute disaster! Nothing but scuffs and tops and worm burners! I couldn't get a ball off the ground!

OK, something is wrong here, let's try to figure out what it is. I kept swinging and finally figured out that when I would shift my weight to initiate the downswing, I would also shove my head toward the target. I was seriously out of whack, and who knows why? I wasn't doing that the last time I played or hit balls.

Once I caught on I concentrated on keeping my head "back" until the ball was away. Immediately I started hitting the ball the way I wanted to. I think this is very important whether or not you take lessons. You probably can't take your pro with you during a round, so the ability to self diagnose can be a game saver!

[JetFan1983]

I feel as if Mike wrote a good post here 

[Vinsk]

When my swing looks beautiful on video, my shots are disastrous. When I look like a crooked asshat, the ball flies majestically through the air.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Hmmmm, good tip! I went out to the range this past Summer to hit a few balls. It started out as an absolute disaster! Nothing but scuffs and tops and worm burners! I couldn't get a ball off the ground!

OK, something is wrong here, let's try to figure out what it is. I kept swinging and finally figured out that when I would shift my weight to initiate the downswing, I would also shove my head toward the target. I was seriously out of whack, and who knows why? I wasn't doing that the last time I played or hit balls.

Once I caught on I concentrated on keeping my head "back" until the ball was away. Immediately I started hitting the ball the way I wanted to. I think this is very important whether or not you take lessons. You probably can't take your pro with you during a round, so the ability to self diagnose can be a game saver!

Umm what? This thread is all about how feel ain't real and what you think may be happening probably isn't, and your response to @klineka's post about how he feels a movement that isn't actually happening on video is a story of your own unsubstantiated feels that you think affected your swing...

Maybe your feel changed your swing or maybe you just got into a rhythm after a while and just started timing everything better, resulting in better shots. How would you know? Feel ain't real.

I'll add my own example: all of my swings feel like arm swings. I rotate naturally without thinking about it. If I had to describe my swing, my hands go up along the target line, then they come down.

[JonMA1]

33 minutes ago, billchao said:

Maybe your feel changed your swing or maybe you just got into a rhythm after a while and just started timing everything better, resulting in better shots. How would you know? Feel ain't real.

I'm not sure if this is what he meant, but I think you can you use the "feel ain't real" to your advantage. Meaning, if the feel seems right but the results are wrong (or video shows it's wrong), you can exaggerate a move to the point where it feels wrong and it might closer.

Example... if I feel my head is remaining stable but video shows I'm moving it towards the target as I get to the top of my backswing, I might change to the point where I feel like I'm moving back away from the target. On video, that feel produces a steadier head.

Does that make sense?

That's not to say that feel will always work. In fact, there's a good chance it will not.

Edit: I didn't realize this is exactly what @klinekahad posted. (it's good to know I'm not the only one who has used that feel).

Anyway, maybe that's what @Buckeyebowmanmeant with his response.

Edited November 25, 2017 by JonMA1

[JetFan1983]

34 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I'm not sure if this is what he meant, but I think you can you use the "feel ain't real" to your advantage. Meaning, if the feel seems right but the results are wrong (or video shows it's wrong), you can exaggerate a move to the point where it feels wrong and it might closer.

Example... if I feel my head is remaining stable but video shows I'm moving it towards the target as I get to the top of my backswing, I might change to the point where I feel like I'm moving back away from the target. On video, that feel produces a steadier head.

Does that make sense?

That's not to say that feel will always work. In fact, there's a good chance it will not.

Edit: I didn't realize this is exactly what @klinekahad posted. (it's good to know I'm not the only one who has used that feel).

Anyway, maybe that's what @Buckeyebowmanmeant with his response.

Going along with what you're saying here, I think that the ultimate goal with feel is to make it real, and we can absolutely do that with the right understanding of what reality is while at the same time being armed with the specific knowledge of what's wrong and how to fix it. 

Those who gets this concept wrong again and again are often people operating on a very remedial level of thinking. And that remedial level of thinking is all too often coupled with an inflated sense of one's knowledge of the game. Throw in a large dose of hubris and an inability to take constructive criticism, and you have one of the many reasons why this thread needs to exist. 

Certainly though most people when presented with this information come around quickly as to its truth. And when they see their swing on video for the first time, that's typically enough to be fully on board that in fact what they are feeling and what is actually happening are two entirely different things. 

But what do we do from there once we realize that feel isn't real? Well, we use it to our advantage of course! If we know that what we are feeling isn't what we are actually doing, then with video, Trackman, and a qualified instructor we can adjust or calibrate our feel into what we want, and thus (eventually) producing a better golf swing. 

The first time a slicer hits a draw for example is often a revelatory moment: "That's what a draw feels like??"

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

I think that the ultimate goal with feel is to make it real

I disagree.

I've had golfers feel things that aren't real, and would be quite bad if they actually did what they felt they were doing in the golf swing. The last thing I want for them is to actually do what they're feeling.

[JetFan1983]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree.

I've had golfers feel things that aren't real, and would be quite bad if they actually did what they felt they were doing in the golf swing. The last thing I want for them is to actually do what they're feeling.

Your missing my point, so maybe that's my mistake (edit: yea I needed to be more clear as to what I was saying). Feel is what it is... to produce the desired picture/change. A draw may feel like a big ol' slice for some random guy out there, who knows. That's my point. That's why my last point was one of surprise as to what a correct feel for someone is (the surprise at that first draw shot and how it actually felt). 

"Making feel real" as in... the feel you're using is actually producing the better, more desirable motion. What that feel actually is could be anything as it is totally individually based. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by JetFan1983

[billchao]

10 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Anyway, maybe that's what @Buckeyebowmanmeant with his response.

That's not what I got out of his post. He wasn't hitting the ball well, then he kept hitting balls to "figure out" what he was doing wrong, then he "fixed it". None of that speaks to knowing what is real in his swing.

9 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

"Making feel real" as in... the feel you're using is actually producing the better, more desirable motion. What that feel actually is could be anything as it is totally individually based. 

That's not really "making feel real" to me. It's just using a feel. If your feel is that your head moves towards the target during the backswing and away from it during the downswing, and that produces a steady head, what's real is the steady head, not the movement you feel in producing it. You wouldn't want to make that feel real.

From what you're describing, it seems like you're just talking about learning a motion, which I call "learning a motion"