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Brandel Chamblee (Again) Calls for Tiger to Ditch Sean Foley

post #1 of 204
Thread Starter 

Brandel Chamblee calls for Tiger to ditch Sean Foley and shares his "thoughts" on other modern teachers as well:

 

There are hundreds of teachers in this world capable of taking Tiger Woods to the next level. He does not need to know the pitch angle of his hips. He does not need to know the angle of his club coming into the ball or the deplane of the ball or spin rates. He doesn’t need to know anything. What’s going on with Tiger is really what’s going on with the game of golf. These people are in golf to make themselves a name. They’re all pointing at the Pyramids and calling it a diamond stack of rocks and saying they discovered them. That’s what’s going on in golf and Tiger Woods is caught right in the middle of it. And it’s sad.

 

I think people here and elsewhere would say that I've slipped from time to time in coming off like the "stack of rocks" type, but that's never been my intent. I've not really discovered much of anything, but I do feel I'm able to say clearly what causes what, what geometry and physics mandate, and so on. They're not new - but the understanding is relatively new (not my discovery, but new discoveries to the world of golf).

 

So far as I know, Tiger's not necessarily overly technical with Sean, and vice versa. I think Brandel is assuming a lot (and doing his job to get ratings and controversy started, since he knows Tiger IS the needle).

 

Anyway, what are your thoughts, specifically on Sean Foley and Tiger?

post #2 of 204

It's simply a case of Brandel going down this road last year and not letting off.  He's now too deep in it to back off and revise the situation.  When Tiger wins a few more majors and gets his world ranking points up to 20 again (double #2), he will still find reasons to bash Sean Foley.  Tiger doesn't look to have many swing thoughts out there anymore, especially compared to last year.

post #3 of 204
I would like to see Tiger move to a 5sk instructor. a3_biggrin.gif
Seriously though, I believe knowing why things occur can only help. How, of course, is also very important. I struggle with the how, but I do feel I have a solid understanding of why the ball does what it does. Thanks to TST.
post #4 of 204
My favorite two quotes:
Quote:
“Tiger is constantly being told he’s doing something wrong. That’s why he makes these amateurish-looking practice swings. That’s why he’s one-dimensional in his golf. He still is Tiger Woods. He’s still the only man on the planet with 14 majors and 74 wins and he’s playing against people who are primarily copying him so the original is going to be a little bit better.”

He's also the only player on the planet with three wins in 2012, which Brandel conveniently omits.
Quote:
“Tiger should run. He should giggle at these guys and say, ‘I’m Tiger Woods. I’m good. I can get this done on my own and go back to playing the golf the way he knew how to play golf.’”

It's his "I'm Keith Hernandez!" moment.

In all seriousness, I think there are some people that might be better suited to improve Tiger (then again, who am I to say?), but hundreds? If Tiger's really gotten away from his Roy Hobbs arrogance, it happened at least somewhat pre-Foley. He wasn't exactly playing well those last few months with Haney. Then again, I've always been someone who would like to know the "why" just as much as the "what," while Brandel is obviously not, and believes Tiger isn't either.

But he's basically become GC's anti-Tiger guy (except when they bring Miceli and Feinstein. Can you imagine those three together for a segment?), so he's going to say stuff like this, then mask it under the "but I really don't have anything against Foley or Tiger" veil.
post #5 of 204

I agree with the the part about every new instructor calling the same thing something different and claiming to have discovered it.  I also agree that this is what is going on with golf instruction today . .but I imagine it has probably always been that way.  I'm a consultant and that's pretty much what we do. . we take the same old ideas and sell them under a new name.  

 

I totally disagree with the parts about Tiger and Foley.  I have no idea what they work on.  I doubt Brandel does, either.  I doubt Brandel knows what Tiger needs to know or not . .and, of course, there is the obvious fact that his play is getting better and better.  I'm still looking for Tiger to win a major this year . .wether it's this week or at the PGA.  I would bet money that he wins at least one more regular event this season. 

 

Brandel Chamblee is a dork who has nothing much to say.  And it's sad

post #6 of 204
Thread Starter 

Brandel goofs up when he talks about Clampett and Seve.

 

Seve's short game was studied by Mac, and his long game was never very good. He worked with Mac well into the period of time when his game had stunk long enough that he couldn't recover from his horrible, horrible misses.

 

Clampett was a great ballstriker, then left his TGM teaching and started getting rabbit ears, seeking out all kinds of new instructors, and that's when he lost it and spiraled down out of control.

post #7 of 204

I think teaching has a natural evolution and Brandel is jumping the gun.

 

At first, the student places himself into the teacher's hands in an effort to gain as much knowledge as possible. He listens to theory, he allows the teacher to instruct, he practices, he learns by doing until the new becomes habit. I think it is only when he has achieved a certain level of mastery that the student can let himself go and become an artist again. Tiger has not reached that point. 

 

I think Tiger and Foley are intelligent enough to recognize that this must happen for Tiger to be Tiger. So Brandel is correct, I believe, that Tiger cannot be a slave to detail - he must become one with the detail, make it innate to his being, to become an artist ... again.

post #8 of 204

Wow how about this comment?

 

Quote:
“I don’t have anything against Sean Foley personally other than the fact that he is systematically robbing us of the greatest talent we have ever seen. He’s dumbing it down,” Chamblee said.

 

Consider the source.  Brandel does zero research, he doesn't talk to the instructors, the players, try to figure out what players are working on and why.  He just makes assumptions and goes with his "gut".  Didn't Hogan make changes to his swing to get better, with the goal being to swing more efficiently?  

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

So far as I know, Tiger's not necessarily overly technical with Sean, and vice versa. I think Brandel is assuming a lot (and doing his job to get ratings and controversy started, since he knows Tiger IS the needle).

 

Anyway, what are your thoughts, specifically on Sean Foley and Tiger?

 

Yes I've hear the same thing, Sean doesn't get overly technical.  Tiger does use Trackman now and has a decent understanding of the numbers.  But in terms of the swing he's just making changes.  Just like he did under Haney and Harmon.  With all his instructors Tiger has tried to hit certain positions, make the picture look a certain way, etc.  I remember very clearly the exaggerated practice swings Tiger would make when Haney was his instructor.  

 

I think being Tiger's swing coach has to be the toughest job in golf.  So much criticism and you need to convince a guy that's won 14 majors to make these big changes to his swing.  I don't agree with everything Foley is advising Tiger to do but he sure he better than most instructors.  I mean his previous instructors don't even know the proper ball flight laws.  All Tiger needs is a pattern and he's start to win again, as he is already doing.  I also think Andy Plummer's influence on Foley has been overblown, and I was one to get on that anti-Foley bandwagon early.  He definitely learned from Plummer and I think it helped clear up some confusion but Foley is not a "S&T" guy.  I have said as much in the past year.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Brandel goofs up when he talks about Clampett and Seve.

 

Seve's short game was studied by Mac, and his long game was never very good. He worked with Mac well into the period of time when his game had stunk long enough that he couldn't recover from his horrible, horrible misses.

 

Not to get too far off topic but Seve returned to the winner's circle with Mac's help after going thru a dry spell.  

 

 

 
post #9 of 204

Brandel's a hypocrite. For all his claiming to be a well-read intellectual, he constantly rants about how the game in regards to golf instruction has grown in the past few years. I do think Mike makes a good point that it's mostly for ratings though, when it comes to bashing what Tiger is up to. 

 

All that said, I do really love to listen to him rant. Its like reading a good Archie comic on the can. You eat all those hamburgers, Jughead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post


 I also think Andy Plummer's influence on Foley has been overblown, and I was one to get on that anti-Foley bandwagon early.  He definitely learned from Plummer and I think it helped clear up some confusion but Foley is not a "S&T" guy.  I have said as much in the past year.  

 

A bit off-topic with my response here, but I think Sean learned quite a bit from Andy, but of course, Andy learned it from others as well, so there you go. But, ultimately, my bitterness towards Foley was because he insulted Andy and his work to the press, which I found a little bit similar to when Tommy Gunn backstabbed Rocky back in Rocky V. Half-kidding. But Sean was in a position to set the record straight that S&T is actually pretty cool if we all just stop and look at it for a second, but instead he decided not to.

 

In the end though, I don't really care about any of that these days. I think he's a better instructor for Tiger than Hank or Butch. Neither Hank or Butch is very technical and I think Tiger was always looking for that. Sean also seems to have a good balance between knowing when to get technical and when to start blowing pseudo-philosophical musings at his players, then backing off and just letting their hard work and skill take over. He's good for Tiger. Plus, he seems like he is really into learning more and more, and for that I have a lot of respect for him.

post #10 of 204

What it really comes down to, does Tiger feel comfortable with Foley? Chamblee can only guess what actually is going on between them. I think Tiger would do whatever it takes to get better, and I don't think he would've stayed with Foley if he didn't think things were improving. He has won three times this year. How many times did Chamblee win in his career? I do agree that it seems like some of these teachers seem like they are reinventing the wheel, but I don't have the understanding of the golf swing that the tour players have. Chamblee seems to be as obsessed with Tiger as much as Capt. Ahab was obsessed with Moby Dick.

post #11 of 204

I think Chamblee should have canned whoever was coaching his swing, while he was on tour.

post #12 of 204

Chamblee calls it deplane?

 

D Plane or D-Plane?

 

Deplane is when I get back from this thing with wings and jet engines.

post #13 of 204

I don't know what's up with Chamblee but how can you complain about a teacher whose student has won 3 big tournaments so far this season after being in the twilight last year? These comments make him sound like an idiot.
 

post #14 of 204

Nothing against Foley but I'd like to see Tiger go back to Butch at some point.  Tiger is having success with Foley so no sense making a change for the sake of it, but I believe Butch provides Tiger that link back to his dad, his youth, and days when maybe golf was more fun for him. 

 

As for Brandel, the guys just using Tiger to get his name in blogs and papers.  Him and Miceli should send Tiger 1/2 their paychecks because without Tiger they'd be completely irrelevant in the golf world. 

post #15 of 204
Chamblee doesn't have the credentials to bash Tiger or his coach. What has he done in his career?? At least when Nick Faldo says stuff, whom I also dislike and disagree with btw, at least that guy had a stellar career.
post #16 of 204

To begin with, Tiger's a tinkerer. Has been his whole career, which would explain him changing his swing, what, four times now? To the layperson, the conclusion could be drawn that he should be more 'Seve-like' and just trust his natural abilities. But that's not Tiger - he is constantly striving for improvement. So that isn't going to change.

 

So that's zero reflection on Foley. It's a total reflection on Tiger.

 

Now. Let's look at the results of the work with Foley. It took a while for the swing changes to take hold, which always happens when you change things. But this year's results are showing the fruits of the labor - Tiger has the most wins on tour this year, and as recently as right now, the first round of the Open Championship, his swing looks real solid. So I don't know what the f Chamblee's talking about.

 

If his point is Tiger should be more of a 'trust what he's got' type of player, well he's not. Never has been. And further, let's just say he was - would he have more than 74 wins & 14 majors?

 

He is what he is, and his career pretty much vindicates how he is. Chamblee's a vacuous talking head.

post #17 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post

Chamblee calls it deplane?

 

D Plane or D-Plane?

 

Deplane is when I get back from this thing with wings and jet engines.

 

 

 

700

 

Boss!!  DEPLANE!!!  DEPLANE!!!

post #18 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlee7 View Post

 

 

 

700

 

Boss!!  DEPLANE!!!  DEPLANE!!!

 

Damn... you beat me to it.

 

Anyway... I think Brandel is right about Foley robbing us.  He's robbing us of seeing Woods hit miraculous shots from places that the ball generally doesn't wind up on a lot of golf courses around the world.

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