LIV Golf Now Closed?

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, jshots said:

You literally just said that same thing to me. 

Yea, that is the point. I was 100% aware of what I was doing 😉

[Aguirre]

The last several pages have been somewhat entertaining to read, but let's not forget the most important point.

LIV is entirely funded by the Saudi government. It's not going to be profitable. It literally can't be, and we all know this. The Saudi government is not Norway, where the sovereign wealth fund is far more likely to benefit its citizens than a specific elite. This is a country of ~35million run by tribal members numbering roughly ~30thousand. They are constructing this league, and getting into bed with WWE, for a specific reason. THIS IS ALL THE INFO THAT IS NEEDED. I'm not interested at all in anti-trust law or anything of that nature. 

You take the blood money, I'm not calling for your prosecution. I've watched Korn Ferry Tour events. Dudes can play better than I can. I'll watch them. Go miss a six foot putt while ZZ Top or some other shit old band plays over the loud speakers at your exhibition.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, jshots said:

They've gotten only a handful of top players, I think that number would be significantly higher if it wasn't for the PGA Tour barring players.

Kind of takes the ’mono’ out of monopoly when your rival tour is getting top players. It’s a rival tour and the players want to be able to play both tours. That’s the ludicrous part. Pick one. I could not have worked for Gillette and for SC Johnson at the same time. And no one in their right mind would have thought I should have been able too. So the PGAT is in fact not a monopoly because the LIV exists. That is the basic point.

If the LIV tour model required making money, then one could argue unfair practices. But it doesn’t. And it’s not the PGAT’s responsibility to help LIV make money. When ATT was broken up, it was because they were controlling the entire market and dictating prices. Splitting them require them to provide infrastructure to aid the new entities. But this case is entirely different because LIV is just spending money of their own with no attempt to be a viable self-sustainable business.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, jshots said:

The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour.

Except that they've already had two events (Portland, Trump's course), and will have at least one more in Boston… and are having like ten next year in the U.S. Plus, there are multiple other Tours in the U.S., they're just not as big as the PGA Tour.

Once again… is there anywhere else in North America to play "meaningful" hockey besides the NHL/AHL? How about "meaningful" basketball besides the NBA or it's developmental league? "Meaningful" football outside of the NFL? How about baseball?

Your points are bad because your grasp of the facts and logic is bad.

3 hours ago, Aguirre said:

LIV is entirely funded by the Saudi government. It's not going to be profitable. It literally can't be, and we all know this.

It's an "investment" fund, though, so I would argue that they expect it to be profitable at some point. They don't just spend money from it, they're actively trying to "invest" it to get a return.

I don't believe the "they don't expect to make a profit" angle. Not in the short term, but if it's just going to be a money hole they may just pull the plug at some point in a few years.

[Bucki1968]

Not sure if this information is noted somewhere else on this topic (I've been going back looking but 90+ pages is a lot), I've heard that the prize money is being paid on top of the contracts but have also heard that it's not paid and is counted in the initial payouts? Does anyone know the actual truth? It's funny how all these guys go to LIV and talk about how great it is but no one really says anything about $. I have looked to try to find that info but I don't think anyone really has any of the actual numbers.

[Friz]

21 minutes ago, Bucki1968 said:

Not sure if this information is noted somewhere else on this topic (I've been going back looking but 90+ pages is a lot), I've heard that the prize money is being paid on top of the contracts but have also heard that it's not paid and is counted in the initial payouts? Does anyone know the actual truth? It's funny how all these guys go to LIV and talk about how great it is but no one really says anything about $. I have looked to try to find that info but I don't think anyone really has any of the actual numbers.

One of LIV's lawyers stated during the lawsuit that prize money is recouped against their sign on bonus.  LIV later came out and said it was "in addition to."

I dont think there is a clear and obvious answer, theyre stating both and clearly want everyone to believe its additional...but the below article provides a little info on it

 

A statement by a LIV Golf lawyer raised questions about LIV’s prize money | Golf News and Tour Information | Golf Digest

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One of LIV Golf’s lawyers at Tuesday’s temporary restraining order hearing may have accidentally revealed that...

 

[jshots]

18 hours ago, vasaribm said:

Scottie playing mind games...

Scottie Scheffler, Cameron Smith share awkward moment at FedEx St. Jude Championship

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The Rules of Golf are extensive and can be pretty confusing at times.

 

I bet on Scottie to win this week but looks like he is a bit too riled up.

[dennyjones]

34 minutes ago, jshots said:

I bet on Scottie to win this week but looks like he is a bit too riled up.

I'm sure emotions running high will affect some player's performances. 

[Vinsk]

9 hours ago, jshots said:

The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour.

Gosh. You’re right. $40-100million sign on and $4mil first prize, money won for team placing, and $125k for finishing DFL is just not meaningful so they want to play for both? Seems odd to be fighting to come back to a Tour that has treated them all so poorly. 

[jshots]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Gosh. You’re right. $40-100million sign on and $4mil first prize, money won for team placing, and $125k for finishing DFL is just not meaningful so they want to play for both? Seems odd to be fighting to come back to a Tour that has treated them all so poorly. 

Playing devils advocate here because I can't comprehend what its like to be a millionaire and want to be a zillionaire - but I think the point is there is no competition in LIV just money. Thus still no meaningful choice to them. LIV can pay but can't provide competition, PGA Tour has the competition but doesn't pay that well. Most PGA Tour players are not making a ton of money, especially compared to other US sports.

Edited August 12, 2022 by jshots

[Friz]

11 minutes ago, jshots said:

Playing devils advocate here because I can't comprehend what its like to be a millionaire and want to be a zillionaire - but I think the point is there is no competition in LIV just money. Thus still no meaningful choice to them. LIV can pay but can't provide competition, PGA Tour has the competition but doesn't pay that well. Most PGA Tour players are not making a ton of money, especially compared to other US sports.

Oh man, I would LOVE for one of those guys to say that under oath.

But at the end of the day, not one of those guys in that lawsuit said they were leaving for money.  They were leaving for a "better schedule", to "spend more time with their families", or "to grow the game of golf."  They were also aware that LIV was an international organization, the LIV website literally calls themself an "International Golf Series."  They were aware of the format at the time they joined, they were aware of the schedule.  They were also made very aware of what the penalty would be from the PGA Tour if they joined.  They had all of that information in advance, and made a choice.  Now to come back and say that?

Understand you're playing devils advocate, but that argument coming from these professionals should have no legs to stand on in a legal setting.

[Golfingdad]

7 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It’s a rival tour and the players want to be able to play both tours. That’s the ludicrous part. Pick one. I could not have worked for Gillette and for SC Johnson at the same time. And no one in their right mind would have thought I should have been able too.

 

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Once again… is there anywhere else in North America to play "meaningful" hockey besides the NHL/AHL? How about "meaningful" basketball besides the NBA or it's developmental league? "Meaningful" football outside of the NFL? How about baseball?

And if there were, as @boogielicious points out, would it be reasonable to expect anybody to be able to play both at a time?

Of course not - that idea is absurd.

[The Flush]

I doubt it was really intentional, but...

 

 

[jshots]

2 minutes ago, Friz said:

Understand you're playing devils advocate, but that argument coming from these professionals should have no legs to stand on in a legal setting.

I'm not so sure that it has no standing just based on what other sports have been through and Golf has mostly avoided so far.

How Long Will The PGA Handicap Its Golfers?

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Unlike the NBA, MLB and NFL, the PGA Tour considers golfers to be independent contractors, and they have to pay their own expenses, including extensive travel, caddy and coaching costs, entry fees, and even a $50...

 

 

[Darkfrog]

8 minutes ago, jshots said:

I'm not so sure that it has no standing just based on what other sports have been through and Golf has mostly avoided so far.

How Long Will The PGA Handicap Its Golfers?

---

Unlike the NBA, MLB and NFL, the PGA Tour considers golfers to be independent contractors, and they have to pay their own expenses, including extensive travel, caddy and coaching costs, entry fees, and even a $50...

 

 

That article lost me with this statement:

Quote

However, even above-average players in the Professional Golf Association Tour struggle merely to support themselves.

A quick search of the PGAT 2022 money list found that #100 of 200 has earned around $1.2 million dollars. Hardly struggling, unless you have the financial acumen of a can of spam.

[ChetlovesMer]

20 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

That article lost me with this statement:

A quick search of the PGAT 2022 money list found that #100 of 200 has earned around $1.2 million dollars. Hardly struggling, unless you have the financial acumen of a can of spam.

Agreed. I think that's just prize money. It looks like most guys in the top 200 have a "bag deal", A "hat deal", a "logo deal" etc. ... That can bag him (see what I did there? 🤪) at least an additional $250K to $1M per year. 

Take a look at this article. It's a little dated (2018) but the information is still pretty good. 

Ever Wonder How Much a PGA TOUR Pro Makes to Wear All Those Logos?

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Recently Golf.com spoke with a top sports agent, who spoke anonymously about the kind of money a PGA TOUR pro makes off of endorsement deals. 

I do understand that they have to pay their own travel expenses and they give their caddies a cut. But even so, it doesn't sound to me like these guys are just scrapping by. 

 

[turtleback]

6 hours ago, Friz said:

One of LIV's lawyers stated during the lawsuit that prize money is recouped against their sign on bonus.  LIV later came out and said it was "in addition to."

I dont think there is a clear and obvious answer, theyre stating both and clearly want everyone to believe its additional...but the below article provides a little info on it

 

A statement by a LIV Golf lawyer raised questions about LIV’s prize money | Golf News and Tour Information | Golf Digest

---

One of LIV Golf’s lawyers at Tuesday’s temporary restraining order hearing may have accidentally revealed that...

 

It is a disbarrable offense for a lawyer to lie in a court pleading, so I'm going with what the lawyer said in the suit, not what the LIV PR flack says.

2 hours ago, jshots said:

Playing devils advocate here because I can't comprehend what its like to be a millionaire and want to be a zillionaire - but I think the point is there is no competition in LIV just money. Thus still no meaningful choice to them. LIV can pay but can't provide competition, PGA Tour has the competition but doesn't pay that well. Most PGA Tour players are not making a ton of money, especially compared to other US sports.

Just playing common sense here, but LIV not being able to provide competition for their players is one of the silliest claims yet.  If they want competition, play the tour.  If they're just interested in money play LIV.

The PGA pays what it pays based on how much they actually generate, which has absolutely nothing to do with what other sports pay, that generate what they generate.  LIV pays based on how much money the Saudis want to sportswash and has nothing to do with how much LIV generates.  But how strange that a non-competitive league would set itself up against the ultra-competitive PGATour.

I had asked about your profession, in a prior message, because I was looking to see if my surmise that it had nothing to do with law or economics was correct.

[jshots]

18 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I had asked about your profession, in a prior message, because I was looking to see if my surmise that it had nothing to do with law or economics was correct.

Lol I'm not even going to argue with someone who asks about another's profession as some weird condescending ego stroke. Its incredibly clear that there is prior precedent for sports leagues and anti trust violations in this exact type of situation. The density it takes to be this sure of yourself about the righteousness of the PGA Tour here is incredible. Its not black and white.