Are Green Speeds Too Fast?

[darthweasel]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Faster greens aren’t “harder.”

They’re more difficult to maintain not to play.

this last week we were playing a course that the greens were a bit slower than normal but they weren't like thick rough or anything. I have played some courses that really were slow but this one was well within the standard range I have found at municipals and even a private club like Arrowhead or Pumpkin Ridge.

 

Yet about 8 times over the course of the round one of my playing partners would say something along the lines of "I can't putt on these slow greens". What is it about "fast" greens that makes people perceive them to be easier? I tend to find if the practice green is the speed of the actual greens, a good 20 minutes on the practice green means my putting will be within the normal band but these guys sounded like they thought way differently

[imsys0042]

I think slower greens are easier for me.    I find it easier to hit firm and take whatever break out there is.  

[KMP]

2 hours ago, darthweasel said:

What is it about "fast" greens that makes people perceive them to be easier?

From my perspective I prefer fast greens since that is what I learned on and have played the most. Slow greens always take more time for me to adjust. It's not that one is easier than the other IMO. 

[colin007]

I don't ever see greens that are too fast. However, I see stupid pin placements on a regular basis.

[iacas]

I’m not talking about perceptions. I’m talking about actually easier. People putt better on faster greens. It’s been measured and studied.

Also, greens are not 14. Virtually never, including on the PGA Tour.

[mdl]

3 hours ago, Shindig said:

Yeah, it was hole 10 at Hansen Dam, which at some times in history has been hole 1 at the course.  This hole is ~300 yards, with the last 100 yards being quite uphill (I can take a picture next time I'm there).  The pin was up front, but I hit the back of the green (on purpose, as approach shots hit short of the green tend to do what happened to Phil at the '08 Open on hole 13 on Saturday).  The rest of my group hit short and theirs came back to them.  But I was quite a bad putter at this time, as opposed to now where I'm merely a bad putter, and I ran my first putt past the pin ... and off the green ... and had a 45 yard pitch shot for my fourth.  

Haha. I didn't know they ever made Hansen Dam that fast! Admittedly I didn't play there super often, but when I was there it was the same as the other city courses I played more (Rancho, Encino, Balboa). As in, kept long and slow because they're so beat up and overused they'd just die if made fast (tee times for 5-somes at 8 minutes apart, always packed).

[dennyjones]

I run into trouble playing so many varied courses.   I've played about 30 different courses this year and the green speeds vary quite a bit.   I find that if I get time to work on speed before the round it's usually not a problem.   I still have a few 3 putts. 

[StuM]

At league tonight I asked the head pro what speed the greens were.  It is a muni course do did not expect much but the answer shocked me.  He said he did not know but someone checked the last year and said they week 8. That is probably correct but I was stunned he had no idea what speed they were.  I would have thought they would have a better idea, but I guess not.

[iacas]

11 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

I'll be sure to remember that the next time the putt I barely tapped rolls down the the green and back into the fairway.

"Everyone" putts better on faster greens. There have been studies and stuff that show this. Given enough time to adjust (like 30 minutes to warm up a bit), everyone halfway decent (people who can shoot 100 or lower) putt better on faster greens on average. Why?

• They're smoother, so the ball rolls more true. They're not deflected offline as much.
• The strokes required are smaller, and thus less error prone (start direction, etc.).

People are more likely to three-putt on faster greens, but the studies keep showing that they actually make more putts (one-putt more) at a higher clip than their increased three-putts.

11 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

Where I play now, they do some tournaments at 14+, and they have a lot of slope.

No, they don't.

Here are some facts about green speed. ACTUAL green speeds.

• PGA Tour green speeds are typically about 11. On days when they had a lot of rain, and don't mow them, they'll be in the low 10s.
• The fastest greens on the PGA Tour — Muirfield Village, Augusta National, one other one… — are about a 12 to a 12.5 max.

Most courses have greens at about 8 or 9. When they get to 10, people start to call them "fast." Superintendents lie about green speeds all the time… or don't know how to truly measure. If you measure a 10 stimp green going uphill and downhill and averaging the results, you'll often get "12" if you measure up and down a 2% slope.

[Sandy Divot]

I have a turf degree, and have Stimped a lot of greens. 10 is a lot faster than most folks realize. That being said, it is very important that people that set up the course choose good hole locations. I played one day, and putted a ball about 18” past the hole, and it rolled back in. If it hadn’t gone in, I probably would have had a 6 footer. I didn’t complain about the speed of the greens, but I told the pro that he might get a few comments about the pin on six.

[mcanadiens]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

"Everyone" putts better on faster greens. There have been studies and stuff that show this. Given enough time to adjust (like 30 minutes to warm up a bit), everyone halfway decent (people who can shoot 100 or lower) putt better on faster greens on average. Why?

• They're smoother, so the ball rolls more true. They're not deflected offline as much.
• The strokes required are smaller, and thus less error prone (start direction, etc.).

People are more likely to three-putt on faster greens, but the studies keep showing that they actually make more putts (one-putt more) at a higher clip than their increased three-putts.

Ok. That makes sense.

Still the head masochist in charge is really doing a number on us with where they are putting the holes.  There is a definite desire to make my friendly little course a bit meaner.

 

[Bucki1968]

At our club they cut the greens a little shorter (or roll them on Saturday/Sunday mornings) for the morning men's games/groups. Then they put the pins on slopes and humps to make it more challenging. What does all this accomplish? 5-hour rounds of golf. It's ridiculous. This used to happen at the previous club where I was a member. I'm wondering if this is a common problem?

[imsys0042]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

No, they don't.

Here are some facts about green speed. ACTUAL green speeds.

• PGA Tour green speeds are typically about 11. On days when they had a lot of rain, and don't mow them, they'll be in the low 10s.
• The fastest greens on the PGA Tour — Muirfield Village, Augusta National, one other one… — are about a 12 to a 12.5 max.

Most courses have greens at about 8 or 9. When they get to 10, people start to call them "fast." Superintendents lie about green speeds all the time… or don't know how to truly measure. If you measure a 10 stimp green going uphill and downhill and averaging the results, you'll often get "12" if you measure up and down a 2% slope.

We got a new pro a couple of months ago.   I’ll ask him the next time I see him what he thinks.   It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the super got it wrong.   Couple of tournaments that was the claim from him, that they were 14.   There’s no way we are running faster than Augusta.

[ChetlovesMer]

I'll echo what others have mentioned. I don't think fast greens contribute to slow play. As long as the pin placements are fair. 

I've played a couple of courses which seemed to want to put the pin placements in spots where it seems to be positively unfair. I remember a course I used to play years ago that would brag about the fact that you couldn't place a ball within 6 feet the pin on hole 7 without it rolling off the green. About half the green sloped so severely the ball wouldn't stay on it. At the clubhouse they would say if you can't make at least a downhill 6 footer you are going to have to pitch back up to the high spot and try again. They were oddly proud of it. I think they were confusing challenging with unfair. Personally, I always thought it was ridiculous and a silly waste of time. Sometime around 2010 that green got reworked and today it's at least fair. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I remember a course I used to play years ago that would brag about the fact that you couldn't place a ball within 6 feet the pin on hole 7 without it rolling off the green.  About half the green sloped so severely the ball wouldn't stay on it.

This is what I meant in my earlier post, courses that insist on faster green speeds should really limit hole locations to flatter areas.  Pin positions like you describe only serve to slow the pace of play on those holes.  Of course, this concentrates wear and tear on those flatter areas, so they have a difficult choice to make, spread out the traffic, or use pin positions that allow somewhat quicker play.  In most cases, the options don't include re-grading the green to create more level areas.  Fast smooth greens are great, fast smooth greens combined with pin positions where a ball won't come to rest are a recipe for longer rounds.

[mohearn]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

People are more likely to three-putt on faster greens, but the studies keep showing that they actually make more putts (one-putt more) at a higher clip than their increased three-putts.

This must be why the feeling is that fast greens are harder.  (feel ain't real, right). I know I tend to remember the 3 putts more (bogey, dbl+) than the 1 putts (save par, usually). 

When pros warm up, what is their thought process as to green speed, are they just trying to get a "feeling" or do they try to quantify it, like (just for example) take the putter back 8 inches and make a smooth stroke, and observe how far the ball rolls.  How do good players approach this?

[billchao]

19 hours ago, darthweasel said:

What is it about "fast" greens that makes people perceive them to be easier?

For me, faster greens roll true and allow me to make smaller swings, which eliminates some start line control issues. I tend to push the ball on longer swings.

[StuM]

1 hour ago, mohearn said:

This must be why the feeling is that fast greens are harder.  (feel ain't real, right). I know I tend to remember the 3 putts more (bogey, dbl+) than the 1 putts (save par, usually). 

When pros warm up, what is their thought process as to green speed, are they just trying to get a "feeling" or do they try to quantify it, like (just for example) take the putter back 8 inches and make a smooth stroke, and observe how far the ball rolls.  How do good players approach this?

I will not claim to be a "Good Player" but my putting this year is much better then in prior years.  I credit part of that improvement to my change in pre-round warm-up.  I do not try to hole out my practice putts, I want to miss the hole and see how far past it the ball rolls.  Ideally 6-12" past which would give the ball a good chance to drop in the hole if on line.   If I go several feet past then even if on-line there is a chance the ball would not drop, and of course 100% of short putts never go in.  I pay close attention to how far my take-away is on up-hill, down-hill and side-hill putts from various distances to get a good idea.  Once on the course I worry about the line.