Is pace of play (or slow play) a real problem?

[jmanbooyaa]

5 hour round today. No one in front of us. I was paired with a 2 some in a cart and another walker. The 4 of us went off at 7:12 am. Too much time looking for lost balls. Multiple tee shots and or fairways. This wasn’t due to a lost ball but the fact they did not like their 1st shot. Painful. 

[colin007]

3 hours ago, jmanbooyaa said:

5 hour round today. No one in front of us. I was paired with a 2 some in a cart and another walker. The 4 of us went off at 7:12 am. Too much time looking for lost balls. Multiple tee shots and or fairways. This wasn’t due to a lost ball but the fact they did not like their 1st shot. Painful. 

I wouldn't have stuck around for that

[gjunkie57]

My playing partners and I spend most of our on course time looking for wayward shots. Straighter shots would cut 30 mins or more. 

[Moxley]

40 minutes ago, gjunkie57 said:

My playing partners and I spend most of our on course time looking for wayward shots. Straighter shots would cut 30 mins or more. 

Very true. Among the groups I play in (mostly higher or high-mid cappers), I'm usually the only person to play less than driver on non par 3 holes. I think, at least among men, a cultural change is needed here as too many just pull out driver whether it's the best play or not. 

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, Moxley said:

Very true. Among the groups I play in (mostly higher or high-mid cappers), I'm usually the only person to play less than driver on non par 3 holes. I think, at least among men, a cultural change is needed here as too many just pull out driver whether it's the best play or not. 

This is off topic, but I think the term "cultural change" is a bit extreme. Good chances are for most higher handicap golfers, they will have almost as large of a miss with their 3 wood as they will with the driver. If someone is a 20 handicap and spraying the ball both directions with a driver, its unlikely they're going to step up and hit 75% of their fairways if they used a 3wood only.

I highly doubt you would see any significant difference in pace of play if your playing partners starting using a 3 wood or iron off the tee instead of driver. I could actually make the argument that pace of play would increase because if they hit a hybrid or iron off the tee, depending on how long the hole is, its possible that some longer par 4s now become 3 shot holes to get to the green, which would in theory negate any time savings that would have come as a result of "potentially" hitting it straighter

 

[mcanadiens]

13 minutes ago, klineka said:

Good chances are for most higher handicap golfers, they will have almost as large of a miss with their 3 wood as they will with the driver.

Absolutely. The whole idea that us hacks pick up much accuracy with a single club downshift is at least overstated.

 The best bet for us high-handicaps is to try to be thoughtful about our golf course selections. I know damn well there are certain courses in my area where I will be miserable even on a relatively good day. Fortunately there are several wider-open type courses where I can easily find (and usually play) my bigger mishits.

Cut down the ball searches and it makes a big difference.

 

[JonMA1]

I’ll get an argument from this, but from a guy who sprays his driver around and can keep the next club (far more) in play, developing better accuracy with the driver has been and continues to be key. 

To stay on topic, keeping the ball in play saves time. Accomplishing that with the longest club in the bag saves time and strokes.

But those who swing out of their shoes without the skill in an attempt to get more yards are hitting a lot balls out of play. For a lot of us, it takes time and a different attitude. Learning to keep the ball in play (not necessarily the fairway) saves time and is a helluva lot more fun than hitting the occasional bomb down the middle amongst a myriad of hooks, slices, tops, pop-ups and provisionals.

Maybe @Moxley‘s point was that a busy course may not be the best place to develop that skill.

[ghalfaire]

Probably late to the party here but I was surprised at the results of the poll.  My personal experiences is that not very often do I have any problems with slow play.  I'm not a slow player or particularly fast ether and my foursome averages about 3:45 minutes if not held up anywhere.  I do play the munis and do also belong to a club.  Pace of play at the club can be slow too at times and don't see a big difference in the pace there Vs the munis.   If the poll is representative of the golfing population I would guess than just makes me lucky in not running into traffic very often. 

[Moxley]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

This is off topic, but I think the term "cultural change" is a bit extreme. Good chances are for most higher handicap golfers, they will have almost as large of a miss with their 3 wood as they will with the driver. If someone is a 20 handicap and spraying the ball both directions with a driver, its unlikely they're going to step up and hit 75% of their fairways if they used a 3wood only.

I highly doubt you would see any significant difference in pace of play if your playing partners starting using a 3 wood or iron off the tee instead of driver. I could actually make the argument that pace of play would increase because if they hit a hybrid or iron off the tee, depending on how long the hole is, its possible that some longer par 4s now become 3 shot holes to get to the green, which would in theory negate any time savings that would have come as a result of "potentially" hitting it straighter

 

I think that like most things , it depends. A 3 wood isn't a much of a downgrade for an amateur , but a hybrid or 5 wood is. Sometimes Driver is the best bet, I just don't think it's often going to be the best 14 times. 

I played a game at a lovely course with a few weeks back in a fourball which took 5 hours thirty, and very little waiting (only waits were letting people through). Most of the time was spent in searching in the rough for errant tee shots. It was like none of the others realised that balls beyond the first cut were not likely to be findable.


 

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

This is off topic, but I think the term "cultural change" is a bit extreme. Good chances are for most higher handicap golfers, they will have almost as large of a miss with their 3 wood as they will with the driver. If someone is a 20 handicap and spraying the ball both directions with a driver, its unlikely they're going to step up and hit 75% of their fairways if they used a 3wood only.

I highly doubt you would see any significant difference in pace of play if your playing partners starting using a 3 wood or iron off the tee instead of driver. I could actually make the argument that pace of play would increase because if they hit a hybrid or iron off the tee, depending on how long the hole is, its possible that some longer par 4s now become 3 shot holes to get to the green, which would in theory negate any time savings that would have come as a result of "potentially" hitting it straighter

 

I would disagree with this conclusion.  Although it depends somewhat on the clubs themselves, all else being equal, a 3 wood or 4 wood is going to be more accurate than a driver, if for no other reason than you won't hit it as far, so it won't be as far off target when it comes to rest.  Most bogey and worse golfers hit varying degrees of a slice, and when that is your typical ball path, it will normally be less pronounced with a fairway wood than with a driver.  I speak both from personal experience and from observation of others over my 40 years of playing the game. 

I played 9 holes in a 35-40 mph gale on Friday, decided to leave the driver in the bag, and I hit 6 of 7 fairways off the tee with my 15° Mizuno 3 wood, most were against or across the wind (only the 150 yard par 3 8th hole was straight downwind).  I also hit the green on the 195 yard uphill par 3 2nd, a hole on which I NEVER hit the green... only once in the last 2 seasons of league play.  I like my weak 3 wood (call it a 3½ wood)... maybe not as long as a 13° wood, but easy to hit from a tight fairway lie and even from many rough or hardpan lies.  It has long been one of my better club purchase decisions.

I'm quite certain that my pace was better by not having to deal with the funky lies and brief searches that go hand in hand with playing a lot from the rough and worse.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Fourputt

[klineka]

12 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I would disagree with this conclusion.  Although it depends somewhat on the clubs themselves, all else being equal, a 3 wood or 4 wood is going to be more accurate than a driver, if for no other reason than you won't hit it as far, so it won't be as far off target when it comes to rest.

In the real world though, not all else is equal. Different shaft lengths, different head sizes, different tee heights, different swings that the amateur higher handicapped golfer puts on the ball.

I agree with your statement that the 3 or 4 wood is going to be more accurate than a driver, but the point I was trying to make is lets say the amateur has a 40 yd slice with a driver. If they had a 30 yd slice with the 3 wood on the same hole, there's still a chance that the 3 wood will end up out of play resulting in a lost ball and no time savings at all. Just because the miss is unlikely to be as pronounced, that doesnt automatically mean the ball will still be in play just because its a 3 wood. Like I said originally, I think most higher handicapped golfers who have a huge two way miss with their driver will not be capable of consistently hitting the fairway and keeping the ball in play with the 3 wood. 

Sure hitting the 3 wood or lower off the tee might result in a shot or two per round being found that might have otherwise been lost with hitting driver, but hitting the 3 wood or lower might also result in a golfer needing to hit a full swing third shot to even reach the green, which would basically cancel out the time advantage they might have gained from not saving one or two tee shots from going O.B.

[Fourputt]

41 minutes ago, klineka said:

In the real world though, not all else is equal. Different shaft lengths, different head sizes, different tee heights, different swings that the amateur higher handicapped golfer puts on the ball.

I agree with your statement that the 3 or 4 wood is going to be more accurate than a driver, but the point I was trying to make is lets say the amateur has a 40 yd slice with a driver. If they had a 30 yd slice with the 3 wood on the same hole, there's still a chance that the 3 wood will end up out of play resulting in a lost ball and no time savings at all. Just because the miss is unlikely to be as pronounced, that doesnt automatically mean the ball will still be in play just because its a 3 wood. Like I said originally, I think most higher handicapped golfers who have a huge two way miss with their driver will not be capable of consistently hitting the fairway and keeping the ball in play with the 3 wood. 

Sure hitting the 3 wood or lower off the tee might result in a shot or two per round being found that might have otherwise been lost with hitting driver, but hitting the 3 wood or lower might also result in a golfer needing to hit a full swing third shot to even reach the green, which would basically cancel out the time advantage they might have gained from not saving one or two tee shots from going O.B.

One quick OT comment then I'm done... I can do what I do in part because I don't play the back tees on any course any more.  I'm almost 72, and for me, the difference in length between 3W and driver is not that great.  I can't seem to get rid of the power fade on the driver, whereas I can do so with the 3W.  I generally keep it between straight and about a 5 yard fade, while the driver can slice off line as much as 50 yards when the wind is wrong.  If I can do it, I see no reason why any other player can't do similar.

Part of it is psychological... I don't feel that I have to swing as hard with the 3W.  That lets me keep the club under better control, I make better contact, the ball goes straighter, and I'm in better shape for the next shot, even if that next shot is still a 5W or 7W.  At my age, I'm better with my fairway woods than I am with my irons.  Keeping the ball in play keeps me moving at a better pace and makes for better scores.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Fourputt

[birdiemobile]

During a typical round of golf dozens of opportunities to save a few moments slowly vanish.   if I had to choose to play faster golf or slower golf I would choose faster golf.  How you answer that question tells a lot about your own pace of play.   Most of the time I have no choice and play slower than I want.  I LOVE TO PLAY GOLF PERIOD.  I do not believe slow play depends on the course,  the size of the group or even the time it takes to play the round.  If your playing partners take practice swings then it is going to be a slow round.  If everybody needs to comment on every shot right after the ball is hit then probably a slow round.  If your playing partners never putt out because one time they missed a short putt instead of marking and waiting until they are out again then it is going to be slow.  If your companions always bring their putter head cover to the green then they are slowing you down. If your preshot rountine starts with putting a glove on then your thoughtlessly slow.  If you cannot drop off your cart companion and go hit your shot then meet in the middle afterward then your playing golf by the hour and not the job. 

 Justice Potter Stewart's famous phrase "I know it when I see it" the constitution protects all golf except "slow-core golf" ......But I know it when I see it 

[dennyjones]

12 minutes ago, birdiemobile said:

During a typical round of golf dozens of opportunities to save a few moments slowly vanish.   if I had to choose to play faster golf or slower golf I would choose faster golf.  How you answer that question tells a lot about your own pace of play.   Most of the time I have no choice and play slower than I want.  I LOVE TO PLAY GOLF PERIOD.  I do not believe slow play depends on the course,  the size of the group or even the time it takes to play the round.  If your playing partners take practice swings then it is going to be a slow round.  If everybody needs to comment on every shot right after the ball is hit then probably a slow round.  If your playing partners never putt out because one time they missed a short putt instead of marking and waiting until they are out again then it is going to be slow.  If your companions always bring their putter head cover to the green then they are slowing you down. If your preshot rountine starts with putting a glove on then your thoughtlessly slow.  If you cannot drop off your cart companion and go hit your shot then meet in the middle afterward then your playing golf by the hour and not the job. 

 Justice Potter Stewart's famous phrase "I know it when I see it" the constitution protects all golf except "slow-core golf" ......But I know it when I see it 

Welcome to TST.    Nice first post.   Don't be a stranger.

[Vinsk]

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/latest-slow-play-penalty-brings-more-questions-it-answers

Can’t believe they just can’t get a hold of this problem. 

 

Pavin was given a one-stroke penalty for violating the tour’s pace of play policy and the infraction nearly cost him a spot in the second postseason event for the over-50 circuit; but instead of a chorus of approval from those who have anxiously awaited a push to stamp out slow play, the reaction was, well, confused.

Why? Just because they ‘don’t consider Pavin a slow player’? Irrelevant. In that instance he was. Penalty is justified.

“All the guys we know are slow players have never been penalized out here. Where has this been for the last 15 years?”

I doubt that’s true. Nonetheless, what do they expect? They’re trying to enforce the rule more diligently perhaps but these guys don’t like that they chose Pavin? 

At issue isn’t whether Pavin violated the circuit’s policy. He did.

Right. So what’s the problem? I don’t believe anybody deserves to be targeted for this or any other rule. The rules apply to all players equally. I guess better policing will have to be performed but bottom line here is Pavin broke the rule and was penalized. Not sure Lanny has much of a point here.

[jetsknicks1]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:06 AM, birdiemobile said:

During a typical round of golf dozens of opportunities to save a few moments slowly vanish.   if I had to choose to play faster golf or slower golf I would choose faster golf.  How you answer that question tells a lot about your own pace of play.   Most of the time I have no choice and play slower than I want.  I LOVE TO PLAY GOLF PERIOD.  I do not believe slow play depends on the course,  the size of the group or even the time it takes to play the round.  If your playing partners take practice swings then it is going to be a slow round.  If everybody needs to comment on every shot right after the ball is hit then probably a slow round.  If your playing partners never putt out because one time they missed a short putt instead of marking and waiting until they are out again then it is going to be slow.  If your companions always bring their putter head cover to the green then they are slowing you down. If your preshot rountine starts with putting a glove on then your thoughtlessly slow.  If you cannot drop off your cart companion and go hit your shot then meet in the middle afterward then your playing golf by the hour and not the job. 

 Justice Potter Stewart's famous phrase "I know it when I see it" the constitution protects all golf except "slow-core golf" ......But I know it when I see it 

How does people commenting right after a ball is hit slow the round down?

[Slim_Pivot]

Once you get to your ball. How long should it take to hit? This accounts for getting out of the cart (I live in the mountains Ok) getting yardage, grabbing club, practice swing/routine, then hitting. They were timing me and I got a ton of crap from my league for averaging 42 seconds (according to them). That seemed 100% fine to me tho. I’m very conscience of not being slow so I do all the pre stuff as fast as I can. I’m def as ready as I can be. Then I do a drill type practice swing, take my time getting into my posture before hovering a couple seconds too long. The guys all think they are lightening fast because they pull the trigger faster than me, but aren’t nearly as  ready and fiddle more pre shot. But am I wrong here? Am I too slow?

Also this did not include t-box or around the green. They did this on my “fairway shots”

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Slim_Pivot said:

Once you get to your ball. How long should it take to hit? This accounts for getting out of the cart (I live in the mountains Ok) getting yardage, grabbing club, practice swing/routine, then hitting. They were timing me and I got a ton of crap from my league for averaging 42 seconds (according to them). That seemed 100% fine to me tho. I’m very conscience of not being slow so I do all the pre stuff as fast as I can. I’m def as ready as I can be. Then I do a drill type practice swing, take my time getting into my posture before hovering a couple seconds too long. The guys all think they are lightening fast because they pull the trigger faster than me, but aren’t nearly as  ready and fiddle more pre shot. But am I wrong here? Am I too slow?

Also this did not include t-box or around the green. They did this on my “fairway shots”

The 2019 Rules of Golf recommend that a player take no more than 40 seconds after he is able to play without interference or distraction, and should usually be able to play more quickly than that.  If you're averaging over 40 seconds, you're on the slow side, it means that at least half of the time you take more time than the USGA recommends.  If you're not the first player to hit, you should be out of the cart, have your distance, and select your club while other players are hitting.  Without playing with you, I won't label you as "too slow", but its probably a good thing to re-evaluate what you do, and when you do it.