Pre-Shot/Post-Shot Routine Importance

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, billchao said:

You can't use them during a round you're posting though, right? You can gather your data while you're playing, but you can't use the Apps for feedback on the course. It's still a breach of 14-3 even if it's a casual round.

Yeah, I guess an aid is an aid even if it possibly distracts you more than helps.

[mvmac]

I don't understand how the part where I'm throwing my club at my bag and cursing at God is all that important 

Without reading any posts in the thread I voted for pre-shot routine because

- I didn't know what a post-shot routine was. I don't take practice swings after I hit the shot or anything, I'm on the the next shot. We know from gurus that reading divots doesn't tell you anything 
- For me it's important to rehearse my feels that I try to repeat over the shot. I've experimented with other routines but the one I've had since about mid-April does help me hit the ball more solid on the course than any other I've used.
- Even if I hit a bad shot it's not going to change much of what I'm trying to do.

Having said that, I get the feeling @iacas is going to put together a convincing argument for post-shot routine.

I'm guessing the routine is gathering information: how far the ball is going with the current wind/temp, am I hitting it solid or do I need to add a 1/2 club because I'm hitting everything a little off, do I need to switch to my "B" swing, how the greens are reacting to shots, putts, chips, assessing shot zone, I felt (insert swing thought) but it wasn't enough so on the next pre-shot routine I'm going to really emphasize the swing thought, is the sand hard, soft, how the ball is reacting to coming out of the rough on short and long shots, etc.

I could also change my pre-shot routine every time or not even make a practice swing and the information I learn after the shot will probably be more important in the long run. So yeah I've already changed my vote lol

 

 

[sjduffers]

4 hours ago, NM Golf said:

I would have to say pre-shot, although after reading about post-shot routines in Golf Magazine you cannot discount their importance as well. For me, post-shot is very mental and I think I am fairly strong in that area. I analyze bad shots for possible causes then let them go fairly quickly, I don't dwell over them. Pre-shot routines however make or break me a lot of times. Making sure I get aimed correctly, have good ball position, good pre-shot mental prep, thats more important to me.

Exactly! I feel precisely the same way. There are too many times, particularly in casual rounds when I fail to go behind the ball looking at the target and align myself from the setup position looking at the target and end up well left, just as I was lined up. And having a bad thought or doubt before pulling the trigger hardly ever ends well.

ETA: But I may have a strong post-shot routine without even knowing what it was/is, including evaluating the ball flight, the perceived distance carried, green reaction to the ball, etc... just like @mvmac said. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by sjduffers

[amishboy51]

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

I don't understand how the part where I'm throwing my club at my bag and cursing at God is all that important 

 

 

 

Couldn’t have said it any better @mvmac

[iacas]

4 hours ago, billchao said:

You can't use them during a round you're posting though, right?

You can use the GAME GOLF, of course, but not the Mevo.

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

Having said that, I get the feeling @iacas is going to put together a convincing argument for post-shot routine.

I'm guessing the routine is gathering information: how far the ball is going with the current wind/temp, am I hitting it solid or do I need to add a 1/2 club because I'm hitting everything a little off, do I need to switch to my "B" swing, how the greens are reacting to shots, putts, chips, assessing shot zone, I felt (insert swing thought) but it wasn't enough so on the next pre-shot routine I'm going to really emphasize the swing thought, is the sand hard, soft, how the ball is reacting to coming out of the rough on short and long shots, etc.

I could also change my pre-shot routine every time or not even make a practice swing and the information I learn after the shot will probably be more important in the long run. So yeah I've already changed my vote lol

Note that the original question doesn't say anything about what it is important to… In other words, I didn't say "important to the round you're playing" or "important to long-term development." I just said "important." So there's a lot of wiggle room in terms of how to take that.

So there's no really wrong answer… I'm just trying to get people to think about things a little more. Your answer was a good post because it showed your thought process. You reflexively said "pre-shot" and then played devil's advocate with yourself to change your mind.

Generally speaking I'm with JG on this one. I think it's important to properly assess the shot you just hit. I've hit a lot of great shots with a different pre-shot routine. So long as I shut up and take a second to settle into the shot, I don't really have to do the other things.

But if I was totally blocked off from any feedback after I hit the shot - the flight, how it reacts on the green, the feels, etc. - then I'd have a really hard time playing pretty good golf, on that round OR in the future. I wouldn't know what to practice.

I am actually not going to argue this too much, or make a big case out of it (if I had it would likely be in the Swing Thoughts forum). Just wanted people to think about it a little bit.

[saevel25]

I took the idea of post-shot routine to the range. This is the first time I really thought about taking what I see from my shot and applying it to my game. I really saw the change in how I approached practicing with this. It helped me make adjustments much more quickly. I found it much easier to hit the type of shot I wanted the 2nd time if I didn't achieve the result I wanted the first time. It made me much more focused as well. 

 

[Hardspoon]

I voted "post-shot" routine, for two reasons.

First, I don't have a set "pre-shot" routine.  I probably should...but I don't.  I do different things each time.  If I feel like I'm losing my swing thought a bit, I'll make a couple rehearsals (sometimes after address) to get it back.  Maybe once per round, I'll take a full practice swing.  If I'm hitting it well, I'll forgo pretty much everything.

Second, I tend to let immediate results (fat/thin shot, push right, etc) make me search for a quick adjustment.  If I fall into that trap, I'll end up chasing my tail throughout a round.  So, post-shot, I will clear my head of the specific result, and reinforce the swing thought I'm supposed to be focusing on.  That's important for me.

 

[Yukari]

Neither for me.  I don't have a preshot or postshot routine.  I just step up, set up and swing.  Afterwards, just put the club back in the bag.

[Club Rat]

5 hours ago, mvmac said:

Having said that, I get the feeling @iacas is going to put together a convincing argument for post-shot routine.

I'm guessing the routine is gathering information: how far the ball is going with the current wind/temp, am I hitting it solid or do I need to add a 1/2 club because I'm hitting everything a little off, do I need to switch to my "B" swing, how the greens are reacting to shots, putts, chips, assessing shot zone, I felt (insert swing thought) but it wasn't enough so on the next pre-shot routine I'm going to really emphasize the swing thought, is the sand hard, soft, how the ball is reacting to coming out of the rough on short and long shots, etc.

Of course Erik always has something up his sleeve.  

I am surprised at your choice, given your explanation expresses the many details a player can observe from a shot.

I voted post shot, every swing has good, better and bad or poor features. Results are a decent indicator, although a great shot can sometimes result in unusual situations and vise-versa.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Club Rat
misspelled name of guy I have known of for years

[Ty_Webb]

If you have a ten foot putt to win the Masters, pre-shot routine is more important at that time. If you make it, your post-shot routine isn't likely to have much of an impact. At least not your immediate post-shot routine. 

Ive never really thought of watching what happens after you hit it as a post-shot routine. I have lately been working on my pre-shot routine though. For my putting I stand behind the ball and visualize it going in the hole. Then I take three steps and set in next to the ball. Two practice strokes looking at the hole. Then step in. One look. Hit it. I have this one pretty much down now and it helps me feel comfortable. Other shots I do my practice swings and then stand behind it. Visualize the ball going where I want it to go. Pick a spot to aim at. Then step in, point the club at my aim spot. Settle my feet in and take a look at the target and back at the ball and go. Goal is to get the routine to a point where it always takes me the same amount of time to do it no matter the circumstances. 

I certainly don't have a post-shot routine that is anything like as precise. 

Incidentally, if your post-shot routine includes everything like watching where it goes, how it bounces how far it went then pre-shot routine has to include getting a yardage, figuring wind, slope, elevation, club selection target selection etc. If that is the case then pre-shot is clearly more important. Otherwise you'll be hitting driver on a 140 yard par three. (I jest but I have walked onto a tee of a short par three with my driver because I was on autopilot). 

[RandallT]

I voted post-shot routine (without having really heard that phrase before).

Mainly because I'm not a checklist sort of person, and even though I've tried to establish a pre-shot routine, it inevitably fails to take hold long-term. For me, a mental checklist sucks the joy out of getting up and hitting a ball. I enjoy the idea of freeing myself of specific thoughts and just letting my practice and training and intuition take over. Or is that a pre-shot routine (getting myself to stop thinking)? Such a conundrum.

But for after the shot, I do enjoy analyzing the crap out of what just happened. Not sure I'd define it as a routine, but I do find benefit in just assessing my situation and how I handled it. That's where I think I grow more as a golfer long-term, filing away little "lessons learned," trying not to repeat dumb things or perhaps finding some little thing that might've worked in a certain situation.

[mcanadiens]

15 hours ago, mvmac said:

I don't understand how the part where I'm throwing my club at my bag and cursing at God is all that important 

That's crucial. You got to keep the curse words at the right volume in some places or you'll get kicked off the course.

... From a hacker standpoint, watching the damn ball no matter how horrible the swing was is vital. Getting sulky and not looking at it just helps you lose another ball.

Edited October 11, 2017 by mcanadiens

[Eric C]

Voted pre-shot.  Personally, a comfortable and familiar routine, quieting my mind and focusing on key thoughts is what leads to repeatable muscle memory.

But then I get to thinking about other sports - football, basketball, etc., and those professional athletes are hugely successful making amazing shots without any pre-shot routine. It's the fundamentals and perhaps follow-through - which is ... maybe ... more "post-shot.

I'll stick with my vote though. While both are important, I'm no professional athlete and the lack of a pre-shot routine would be catastrophic to my game.

[mvmac]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Generally speaking I'm with JG on this one. I think it's important to properly assess the shot you just hit. I've hit a lot of great shots with a different pre-shot routine. So long as I shut up and take a second to settle into the shot, I don't really have to do the other things.

Yes I think the way he worded it was good, the learning and feedback inform future pre-shots.

4 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

watching the damn ball no matter how horrible the swing was is vital.

5 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Ive never really thought of watching what happens after you hit it

The pos-shot routine is more than just watching the ball, it's evaluating how the elements effected the shot, how the swing felt, how the ball reacted to how the swing felt, etc. IMO this doesn't mean you stand there for a minute taking notes, you're just paying attention to what's going on so you can make more informed decisions in the future. 

To me pointing out that a post-shot routine is important is just highlighting that we should be open to receiving information after each shot, it'll only help for future shots.

Quick example, I have a friend who's miss is always a pull, he gets flippy, adds loft, face left, ball goes left. Tends to be worse towards the end of the round. Let's say we're playing in a tournament together, we're on the 16th hole, I've missed the green and he's pulled shots on the last two holes. What's frustrating is that if he has to hit a green he sets up to the shot and does the same damn thing as the ones he pulled. He should understand his tendency, play the ball in the middle of his stance and make a "Zach Johnson" type of followthrough. His experience is telling him "your swing is making the ball go left", and he's not taking advantage of the feedback.

 

[Ty_Webb]

12 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Yes I think the way he worded it was good, the learning and feedback inform future pre-shots.

The pos-shot routine is more than just watching the ball, it's evaluating how the elements effected the shot, how the swing felt, how the ball reacted to how the swing felt, etc. IMO this doesn't mean you stand there for a minute taking notes, you're just paying attention to what's going on so you can make more informed decisions in the future. 

To me pointing out that a post-shot routine is important is just highlighting that we should be open to receiving information after each shot, it'll only help for future shots.

Quick example, I have a friend who's miss is always a pull, he gets flippy, adds loft, face left, ball goes left. Tends to be worse towards the end of the round. Let's say we're playing in a tournament together, we're on the 16th hole, I've missed the green and he's pulled shots on the last two holes. What's frustrating is that if he has to hit a green he sets up to the shot and does the same damn thing as the ones he pulled. He should understand his tendency, play the ball in the middle of his stance and make a "Zach Johnson" type of followthrough. His experience is telling him "your swing is making the ball go left", and he's not taking advantage of the feedback.

 

Indeed. I meant watching what happens after you hit it to include at the very least watching how it reacts to the wind and how it bounces. The other things you mention are things that I do naturally. I have a fairly inquisitive mind, so those things just sort of happen without me thinking explicitly about it. 

The most confusing thing I find happening to me sometimes is that my swing feels right and the contact feels good, but I look up and the ball is not going where I wanted it to. That can really throw me off. 

Similar example to yours is I played one day a couple of weeks ago and started pretty poorly. I kept hitting it left of where I was aiming it. As the round went on, I started aiming further to the right to allow for that to happen and still leave me in play. I would never aim it actually at trouble (note when I say aim, I mean my expected finishing point, so if I'm trying to hit a 10 yard fade, I'd line up 10 yards left and hopefully hit the 10 yard fade. I would say that I'm aiming it where I want it to finish), but I might aim it right quarter of the green if my miss that day has been to the left. Actually hit it close a couple of times like that and wound up shooting a better score than I should have given my game that day. I definitely agree that this is all important. 

[rehmwa]

Though I voted "'pre-shot" I realize that some of that is applying what I take from my ongoing game (which could be very argued that that learning is actually "post").  I won't change it since I get more fun out of hitting great shots (for now) rather than long term gains and benefits.  But I see great opportunity for pulling off more and more fun shots by being better at applying the info.

I'm going to think on this and see if I can add more value by coming up with a more specific process for post-shot than just "observe and consider and apply" but maybe specifics about what to observe in each flavor of shot.  i.e., better focus on the info I do absorb - more conscious vs unconscious.  Ditto for the range where this process is a bit more of the SOP.

Edited October 11, 2017 by rehmwa

[klineka]

After seeing some other responses and thoughts on this, I think the best way to answer this question is by asking another question, "Important to what?" In shooting the lowest possible score you can on that specific day, I think pre shot routine is probably more important. Can you shoot really low without a pre shot routine? Yes. Can you shoot really low without a post shot routine? Yes. Rarely in the same round would you be faced with the same exact shot, ex. 150 yd from light rough, ball slightly below your feet and a left to right wind. Yes you want to watch where the ball flight goes, but for that specific round you might not face that same shot again. If you have another 150 yd shot from the light rough but the ball is above your feet and right to left wind and you dont address that in your alignment portion of your preshot routine, then you could do the exact same swing as the first shot but miss in the complete opposite direction. 

If you consider things like how the swing felt, how the ball reacted to the elements, etc as part of a post shot routine, then I think things such as what kind of lie you have, wind direction, elevation change, calculating the distance to the flag, aiming to avoid hazards, etc should all be considered part of your preshot routine, even though some of those things most of us do without a second thought, just like most of us do certain things post shot like watch how the ball reacted to the elements, think in our minds was that a crisp strike or was it fat/thin, etc.

Overall I think to do your very best on the specific shot that you are about to hit, preshot routine is by far more important. To improve over time and to become a better golfer/build a better and more repeatable swing, post shot routine is more important.

[Ty_Webb]

15 minutes ago, klineka said:

After seeing some other responses and thoughts on this, I think the best way to answer this question is by asking another question, "Important to what?" In shooting the lowest possible score you can on that specific day, I think pre shot routine is probably more important. Can you shoot really low without a pre shot routine? Yes. Can you shoot really low without a post shot routine? Yes. Rarely in the same round would you be faced with the same exact shot, ex. 150 yd from light rough, ball slightly below your feet and a left to right wind. Yes you want to watch where the ball flight goes, but for that specific round you might not face that same shot again. If you have another 150 yd shot from the light rough but the ball is above your feet and right to left wind and you dont address that in your alignment portion of your preshot routine, then you could do the exact same swing as the first shot but miss in the complete opposite direction. 

If you consider things like how the swing felt, how the ball reacted to the elements, etc as part of a post shot routine, then I think things such as what kind of lie you have, wind direction, elevation change, calculating the distance to the flag, aiming to avoid hazards, etc should all be considered part of your preshot routine, even though some of those things most of us do without a second thought, just like most of us do certain things post shot like watch how the ball reacted to the elements, think in our minds was that a crisp strike or was it fat/thin, etc.

Overall I think to do your very best on the specific shot that you are about to hit, preshot routine is by far more important. To improve over time and to become a better golfer/build a better and more repeatable swing, post shot routine is more important.

I appreciate this is somewhat facetious, but does figuring out your yardage and what club to hit count as pre-shot routine? Because I would defy anyone to shoot a good score without even thinking about what club they are going to hit. Even if you're just looking at the flag and guessing what club it is, that's still as much of an effort as considering how the ball has reacted to the elements after the shot.

Albeit it's going to be hard to shoot a decent score if you don't watch where your ball goes at all too.