PGA Tour's 2020 Pace of Play Changes

[Double Mocha Man]

  On 12/2/2019 at 12:33 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

And if the word "must" is in the rule, what room is there to carve out a "reasonableness" standard? 

 

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The only "must" in a rule is that you "must" go to your in-law"s house for Thanksgiving.

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2019 at 12:33 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

I remember reading an essay by Feherty where he cited someone asking him if there should be two sets of rules, one for pros and one for amateurs. He said there already are. In fact, more than two! They're called "Local Rules". Just look at the back of the scorecard of any course you play. It will say, something like, The Rules of Golf apply except...and then will follow the Local Rules. 

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No. Just… no. That's not correct.

[ncates00]

  On 12/2/2019 at 12:33 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

@iacas has a good point on it's own merit. And if the word must is in the rule, what room is there to carve out a "reasonableness" standard? 

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In the same manner laws/rules are made.  We have general rules and exceptions all the time.  This isn't really difficult to write or enforce.  In fact, as I have said, I think it would be easier to enforce as that would be the general rule unless there was an express exclusion.  This would positively impact pace of play.  "Reasonableness" is a good standard and can be defined and enforced easily.  

As you alluded to with differing sets of rules, this is easily done.  I'm saying do it the other way around by making it the default rule.

  On 12/2/2019 at 12:33 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

@iacas has a good point on it's own merit.

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And I don't agree with him on his point.

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:20 AM, ncates00 said:

This isn't really difficult to write or enforce.

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Spoken like someone who hasn't had much experience with the Rules of Golf.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:20 AM, ncates00 said:

"Reasonableness" is a good standard and can be defined and enforced easily.  

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P.S. And, once again, when you add "must" to this Rule, you're going to penalize me for telling a two-minute story on my recent trip to Dormie Club where, at one point, my playing partner and I may have been the only two people playing golf at that time? Because were this an actual Rule of Golf, instead of a "should" rule, I'd be subject to a penalty for not playing my shot within 40 seconds.

The rule is very good as it is now, as it lets the Committee decide, for their event, what "must" happen, and the consequences for when those things don't happen.

[ncates00]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:32 AM, iacas said:

Spoken like someone who hasn't had much experience with the Rules of Golf.

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Wrong.

 

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:32 AM, iacas said:

P.S. And, once again, when you add "must" to this Rule, you're going to penalize me for telling a two-minute story on my recent trip to Dormie Club where, at one point, my playing partner and I may have been the only two people playing golf at that time?

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Spoken like someone who knows little about rules or law generally.  (or maybe didn't understand what I said)

Did I not say you can write exceptions to general rules?  You do realize that there are general rules and exceptions to rules all the time in real life, right?  The same can be done for golf.  The point here is that golf needs to be sped up on the whole.  Therefore, make it the general rule.  You can carve out exceptions to those rules to cover you and your buddies chat.  This isn't very hard to do.

 

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:32 AM, iacas said:

The rule is very good as it is now, as it lets the Committee decide, for their event, what "must" happen, and the consequences for when those things don't happen.

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I disagree and apparently most people do when it comes to pace of play.  It ain't workin' so let's fix it.

Edited December 2, 2019 by ncates00

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

Wrong.

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You've not illustrated such in this discussion.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

Spoken like someone who knows little about rules or law generally.  (or maybe didn't understand what I said)

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I don't think you're understanding much here.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

Did I not say you can write exceptions to general rules?

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Oy.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

The point here is that golf needs to be sped up on the whole. Therefore, make it the general rule.

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For f***'s sake: NO, for the reasons I've repeated now a few times.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

You can carve out exceptions to those rules to cover you and your buddies chat.  This isn't very hard to do.

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Yes, it is.

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

I disagree and apparently most people do when it comes to pace of play.  It ain't workin' so let's fix it.

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The two are not related.

Go ahead, change the word to "must," and don't even include any exceptions. Slow play problem solved? Uhhh…

No.

[ncates00]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:47 AM, iacas said:

Yes, it is. Christ.

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You're right.  Very hard to do... let's see... don't kill any one.  Exception: self-defense or defense of another.  

🙄

[iacas]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:50 AM, ncates00 said:

You're right.  Very hard to do... let's see... don't kill any one.  Exception: self-defense or defense of another.  

🙄

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Man, who knew that the 50 states, never mind the various countries of the world, could have condensed the thousands of pages of laws regarding one person being involved in the death of another person into a single f***ing sentence that covers every possibility wherein one human is involved in the death of another.

Once again, and for the last time: back to the topic.

[turtleback]

  On 12/2/2019 at 1:42 AM, ncates00 said:

Wrong.

 

Spoken like someone who knows little about rules or law generally.  (or maybe didn't understand what I said)

Did I not say you can write exceptions to general rules?  You do realize that there are general rules and exceptions to rules all the time in real life, right?  The same can be done for golf.  The point here is that golf needs to be sped up on the whole.  Therefore, make it the general rule.  You can carve out exceptions to those rules to cover you and your buddies chat.  This isn't very hard to do.

 

I disagree and apparently most people do when it comes to pace of play.  It ain't workin' so let's fix it.

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So after a significant effort to simplify the rules, you want to create a new rule that is unenforceable outside of the setting of a professionally run tournament and requires exceptions to make it fit the real world.

Doesn't sound like a plan I would sign off on.

[phillyk]

PGA TOUR announces significant enhancements to pace-of-play policy

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After years of meticulous study and thousands of shots analyzed by ShotLink, and in light of a desire to keep the focus on the golf, the PGA TOUR is announcing major enhancements to its existing slow-play policy...

Appears like it could be more than a media stunt.  I hope we see the changes.

[David in FL]

120 seconds to play any single shot gets a bad time.  Color me underwhelmed.

[boogielicious]

  On 1/14/2020 at 5:45 PM, phillyk said:

PGA TOUR announces significant enhancements to pace-of-play policy

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After years of meticulous study and thousands of shots analyzed by ShotLink, and in light of a desire to keep the focus on the golf, the PGA TOUR is announcing major enhancements to its existing slow-play policy...

Appears like it could be more than a media stunt.  I hope we see the changes.

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How can Bryson use psychometric charts for humidity and cross calculate wind deflection versus altitude in 120 seconds! He's not a damn computer????

I foresee this face a lot.

[NM Golf]

Having this "secret" list and whatnot just smacks of yet another weak attempt to curb slow play without actually ever having to hand out a penalty or really even deal with the issue. If the PGA Tour really wanted to curb slow play and were willing to actually penalize players in the process, then they would come up with a strong POP policy. A policy that would not only allow officials to penalize slow players, it would expect them to.

[Buckeyebowman]

  On 1/14/2020 at 5:55 PM, David in FL said:

120 seconds to play any single shot gets a bad time.  Color me underwhelmed.

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Yet it will probably overwhelm Patrick Reed and Bryson DC. Heard a little blurb about this on talk radio today. Supposed to kick in after the Masters according to the reporter. My question is how will they be penalized? Money or strokes? Strokes cost you real money! I remember when Glen "All" Day was a notoriously slow player on the Tour. He said he'd just as as soon cut a check for a thousand dollars to the powers that be, and take all the time he wanted to on the course! 

[iacas]

  On 1/15/2020 at 2:14 AM, Buckeyebowman said:

Patrick Reed

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Patrick Reed is not a known slow player.

[colin007]

Another anonymous interview, oh well. Michael Collins is a world class suck up.

 

Player confidential -- The truth about slow play in golf and how to fix it

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Slow play is one of the biggest issues in golf. The Tour is trying to fix it. We...

 

[boogielicious]

  On 1/15/2020 at 11:27 PM, colin007 said:

Another anonymous interview, oh well. Michael Collins is a world class suck up.

 

Player confidential -- The truth about slow play in golf and how to fix it

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Slow play is one of the biggest issues in golf. The Tour is trying to fix it. We...

 

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I think he was just looking in a mirror when he was interviewing the “player”.

[krupa]

A couple thoughts:

1. I don't think these changes are going to make much of a difference. The PGA Tour saw a bunch of articles and what-not about people changing the channel because of slow play and are saying what they need to to keep people watching. I don't expect any significant improvement to pace-of-play.
2. Zack Johnson doesn't know what the word "proactive" means.